Alternative PCT opinion, comments?

[Severedties]

I have been taking Testosterone Cypionate @500mgs/wk for the past 9 weeks. And have put on a decent amount of weight. I had planned on doing the standard PCT, 100mg/day CLomid for 2 weeks, and 50 for 2 weeks thereafter. Along with 40mgs nolva/ day for 2 weeks and 20mgs for 2 weeks there after. Both starting 2 weeks after my last injection.

I was discussing this with a friend at the gym today, and they said that this is not the best way to go. They said that the best way to recover and maintain gains would be to stop injections, wait 2 weeks and then continue with the Test at 50-100mg/week for the next 4 weeks. In conjunction with these small dosages of test I should run .25 mgs arimidex along with 50mgs clomid for the next 4 weeks.

My question is will the endogenous testosterone production be able to recover if there is still this exogenous test in the system? He told me that it would be able to because it is such a small amount, and that if the amount of test in the system is < 1500ng/dl this is fine. He presented this very convincingly, and I thought I would run it by you guys. If the test would not shut down production, and it would be able to restart production with this small amount of test in the system to prevent wasting, this would seem like a viable option.

What are your thoughts?

[Pumpdogg]

He told you a fib. Once you shut yourself down which I am sure it has happened over the course of your cycle, continuing to use small amounts is still going to keep u down. A healthy adult male only makes between 7-10 mgs a day of test, so by doing what he said you are only staying on longer at a lower dose. Coming off is the only way you are going to restore your HTPA with proper pct, and then it may take months to become "normal" and there is always a chance you will never be where you were b4 you began cycling.

PD

[Skyefire]

Your friend is full of it. You want your own test back, taking a HRT dose of test is just going to delay that. (pretty much what Pumpdogg just said)

If your worried about it get some HCG and run it before the PCT.

BTW your PCT is overkill IMO. the nolvadex alone is fine. drowing yourself with SERMs is not going to help your recover any better the the standerd dose.

[Severedties]

Would Clomid at 100mg/day and nolv 40mg for 1 week. And then clomid at 50mg and nolv at 20mg for 2-3 weeks afterwards be a better approach to the PCT then?

[vicmack777]

Originally posted by Skyefire
Your friend is full of it. You want your own test back, taking a HRT dose of test is just going to delay that. (pretty much what Pumpdogg just said)

If your worried about it get some HCG and run it before the PCT.

BTW your PCT is overkill IMO. the nolvadex alone is fine. drowing yourself with SERMs is not going to help your recover any better the the standerd dose.

Please elaborate because all the people on every board i read pretty much have both as a standard for PCT.

[Skyefire]

Originally posted by vicmack777
Please elaborate because all the people on every board i read pretty much have both as a standard for PCT.

Origional link used: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/show...swales+protocol

Since this is the current hot topic, I figured I would post this:



Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

[ROCKETW19]

have fun in vegas and good luck on your paper!

[Mr incredible]

What about the school of thought that using hcg to long too often will suppress its effectiveness or further delay natural test recovery

[hitman79]

I think Skyfire has posted that a few times. That was the same reply to a thread last year. Either way,,it is good advise and exactly what I did with good results.