Proviron. Why is this not talked about more?

[THE BOUNCER]

Since Deacon and Iron Bull are both in the same thread, let me put this to rest.

Iron Bull, you say that progesterone based compounds and nolvadex do not mix and nolvadex can actually make progesterone induced gyno worse.

Deacon, you say this is nonsense and the nolvadex can be run just fine with a progesterone steriod such as tren.

If you guys could go into a little more detail on each of your points I would love to hear it. A friendly debate if you will. The only thing that can come of it is valuable info.

Thanks guys.

[Deacon]

I would never run it with tren bro - but I would use it for PCT

also if gyno did flair up I would use it but then I would have ceased the cycle anyway

if you are talking about running it alongside tren right in the cycle - I would never do that
I guess I was looking at this the other way

I would only use a AI in the cycle itself - never a SERM

[ROCKETW19]

Originally Posted by Deacon

I would never run it with tren bro - but I would use it for PCT

also if gyno did flair up I would use it but then I would have ceased the cycle anyway

if you are talking about running it alongside tren right in the cycle - I would never do that
I guess I was looking at this the other way

I would only use a AI in the cycle itself - never a SERM

we have our differences but im not messin with you on this, but you say you would never run IT with tren. by IT do you mean nolva? if so i just read where you said it was the thing to do. i dont use nolva while on any cycle so i realy dont care for personal use but i dont want some newbi to come on this board where i call home and think we are idiots.

[Stonecold54]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

sounds like it is one of those things that looks good on paper but doesn't work out in real life. what were you running?

anytime I run either deca or tren with test I have to take dostinex

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by Deacon

I would never run it with tren bro - but I would use it for PCT

also if gyno did flair up I would use it but then I would have ceased the cycle anyway

if you are talking about running it alongside tren right in the cycle - I would never do that
I guess I was looking at this the other way

I would only use a AI in the cycle itself - never a SERM

you just said this in the "sensitive nipples" thread.

Originally Posted by Deacon

the idea that nolva cannot be used with tren because it will make it worse is absurd

also this. i am sure you can see where the confusion is coming from bro. kind of a contradiction here.

Originally Posted by Deacon

so in fact using nolva with tren wont hurt a thing

[blm]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

kind of a contradiction here.

I'll admit, it's kind of confusing the way he worded it, but the statements make the same point.

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by blm

I'll admit, it's kind of confusing the way he worded it, but the statements make the same point.

I think most of this if confusing for that very reason - too many questions and too many answers can confuse anyone at some point - just look at our government officials - they act like confused 4th graders half the time (oh wait - they typically are still at that level "hmm potatoe or potato" )...

[The Iron Bull]

You could use Nolva with Tren or any other progesterone drived steriods. BUT if you are having issue with gyno, and if its progestrone related gyno then you have just increased its effect.

You could also use Nolva for PCT when running progesterone drived steriods. BUT make sure you had enough time for it to clear the system before use.

I base this on a study done in May of 2005.......

Tamoxifen citrate increases expression of progesterone receptor.
________________________________________
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. w.r.miller@ed.ac.uk

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either Anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of estrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression.. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

Originally Posted by Deacon
the idea that nolva cannot be used with tren because it will make it worse is absurd

So much for the absurd :thumbsdow

I wouldnt run an AI, unless the Nolva didnt take care of the gyno issue. In this case, I would use Dostinex.

I would difinitly up the dosage of Proviron before i did anything else though.

You should remember that you dont want to "kill" all your estrogen.

[Stonecold54]

this has been a great thread...its what makes the boards great...all great info guys...thanks for having itchy nips bouncer :-)

[ROCKETW19]

Originally Posted by Stonecold54

this has been a great thread...its what makes the boards great...all great info guys...thanks for having itchy nips bouncer :-)

that is so funny i was thinkin the same thing, i rushed home to see what was posted next. by the way guys did you know tren and EQ are the same only tren is stronger. hehe now im messin with you. im such a dick.

[Deacon]

I spent some time reading last night about progesterone and prolactin again - and in all firness to everyone this is one confusing area - to many theories and not enough hard fact

this has been a good thread but it did get twisted and confusing along the way

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by Deacon

I spent some time reading last night about progesterone and prolactin again - and in all firness to everyone this is one confusing area - to many theories and not enough hard fact

this has been a good thread but it did get twisted and confusing along the way

ya, i agree. both arguments make good points.

with the latest news about Dostinex and the heart valves it may be better to just stay away from all progesterone causing steroids. i doubt that will happen though. lol

[beefcake]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

ya, i agree. both arguments make good points.

with the latest news about Dostinex and the heart valves it may be better to just stay away from all progesterone causing steroids. i doubt that will happen though. lol

Tren and eq are too good to stay away from.

[ROCKETW19]

Originally Posted by Deacon

this has been a good thread but it did get twisted and confusing along the way

the thread got twisted or your posts did? ive been sayin the samething all along you were the only one to say one thing here and a different thing in another thread.