Here is a follow-up question to Mrs. P's thread about religion.

[Gary]

So many people have been killed in the name of God.

It is estimated that one third of the German population was killed in the Hundred Years War where Protestants and Catholics fought each other. The Holocaust was the result of centuries of anti-semitism in Christian Europe. The Arabs killed millions as they spread out from Arabia, and imposed Islam on their conquered nations. and on, and on, and on.

It is not the morality or the beliefs of a religion that have caused the problems, it is the believers who have been misled by their clergy or who have become zealots with self-righteousness.

[Gods Son]

Satan came to Jesus on the eve of his arrest.As he prayed alone,he told his disiples to wait.Satan showed him the future so to speak.The killings in his name,the starving children.Jesus could have stopped his death,but chose to do gods will.So the wars in his name are only prof he is infact REAL.

[Gods Son]

Why does the bible seem so hard to understand.Jesus preached in parables.When a disciple asked him why,he replied so those who want to hear can,and those who do not cant.

[Cogar]

Originally posted by Gary
So many people have been killed in the name of God.

It is estimated that one third of the German population was killed in the Hundred Years War where Protestants and Catholics fought each other. The Holocaust was the result of centuries of anti-semitism in Christian Europe. The Arabs killed millions as they spread out from Arabia, and imposed Islam on their conquered nations. and on, and on, and on.

It is not the morality or the beliefs of a religion that have caused the problems, it is the believers who have been misled by their clergy or who have become zealots with self-righteousness.

I agree, with one comment. You will find if you look into history that typically the leadership of particular religious organizations are responsible for starting these conflicts, not the rank-and-file people within those organizations. For example, the Roman Catholic Church leadership was responsible for ordering persecutions such as the crusade against the Cathars that developed into the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, and so forth (link).

[Puddles]

Originally posted by Cogar
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml

Thank you, Cogar. It's going to take me a long time to go over all of this with all of it's links to other pages. The Creation Versus Evolution link is long and my eyes need some rest, so I've bookmarked it, as well as the the first link you suggested.

[Klash]

Originally posted by stonecold54
How many of you think that if you weren't raised a certain way and instead were taught nothing about religion till age 20, you would choose the same religion or any religion at all?

Or if you were born in a different time, in a different culture, under a different government and exposed to disinformation would god kill you?

In todays world we are bombarded with different propaganda everyday. Yet it is easy for us to find the opposing view because of our form of government and all the forms of communication we have. Two thousand years ago, propaganda would have been much harder to resist or even know that you should. Yet YHWH had no mercy for the Egyption soldiers chasing his 'chosen people, who would have undoubtedly fallen prey to propaganda. When I was young I would ask I thought god loved everyone, why did he kill the egyptian soldiers. I always wondered why god just didn't immobalize the egyptians with some miracle instead of drowning them (or allowing moses too) or enoke some kind of empathy in the hearts of the soldiers.

Why is there no middle ground in (most) religous text? It's always good vs. evil and good wins. How simplistic and convenient.

If a real loving, merciful 'god" wanted to reveal himself. I don't think there would be so many different interpretations. He wouldn't cause prejudice and he wouldn't promote fear and guilt. So I come to the conclusion that god is either (a) a tryrannical, unmerciful, powertripping entity, that I would rather oppose (b) has been misrepresented by humans by their desire for power (c) or he hasn't revealed himself or doesn't exist.

Who would willingly oppose our creator if he made himself known and he was merciful, loving and encouraged free will?

[Cogar]

Originally posted by Klash
Yet YHWH had no mercy for the Egyption soldiers chasing his 'chosen people, who would have undoubtedly fallen prey to propaganda. When I was young I would ask I thought god loved everyone, why did he kill the egyptian soldiers. I always wondered why god just didn't immobalize the egyptians with some miracle instead of drowning them (or allowing moses too) or enoke some kind of empathy in the hearts of the soldiers.

That is a great question Klash, and I am not sure I know the answer, but that bothered me also, so let me propose an idea that seemed to make sense to me. (I may have read this or heard this somewhere but I cannot remember where or when.)

In Genesis chapter 18, God lets Moses know that He plans to destroy Sodom. Moses then asks if God if he will destroy the righteous with the wicked (verse 23). After some discussion, God states that he will not destroy the city if even ten righteous people live there (verse 32). As we later learn, only Lot and some of his family were righteous, and they were removed before the city was destroyed (and there were less than 10 of them). Therefore, my guess is that there were very few, if any, people in the Egyptian army that were worth saving. And if there were some Egyptians that were righteous, maybe they stayed in bed sick that day or something and were kept out of the "battle" in the same way that Lot and his family were kept out of Sodom.

[Gods Son]

Jews were the chosen people in the old testament.Jesus changed that among many things.

[pierced one]

I agree with Cory totally. i was raised with church in mind but not heart. i am confirmed, my parents never really showed any faith after 1985, when my infant brother died,(where the fuck is your god now).I was 5. After that i lost faith, i thought that it was just a huge, hypocritical crock of child molesting shit. I have no religon now. i feel that it is just a crutch for the weak that connot take mental responisiblity for their actions so they go ask the preecher for forgiveness. what a huge fuckin play this is.

[pierced one]

you know what this whole thing pissed me off, this is why people are fighting all over the world, because of someones stupid religous argument. someone trying to preech to someone that don't want to here it, someone trying to take someones "holy ground", someone trying to say they are the rightous ones. stupid isn't it. i along with many other people function just fine without the need for a crutch.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Cogar
I agree, with one comment. You will find if you look into history that typically the leadership of particular religious organizations are responsible for starting these conflicts, not the rank-and-file people within those organizations. For example, the Roman Catholic Church leadership was responsible for ordering persecutions such as the crusade against the Cathars that developed into the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, and so forth (link).

Agree. The clergy of all levels in the various religions have been and are guilty of causing terrible atrocities. They have abused their positions of authority and leadership and debased the beliefs they proclaim.

With that all true, the rank-and-file are not totally innocent. There were a lot of mob caused killings during the Inquisition. Just like happened at the Salem Witch trials. In our own time, witness the bombings of abortion clinics and the shooting of abortion doctors as one example in our country. These acts are being committed by individual zealots (always men).

And here is where it really gets messy morally - "I was just following orders to burn that heretic at the stake". Following orders is not a legal defense, it is an abrogation of individual responsibility. Yet, if the poor peasant doesn't follow orders he gets drawn and quartered. But on the other hand he is committing murder by burning the heretic. Ah, the moral dilemmas.

Since religion is faith and belief based, it becomes very emotionally charged to some people and they easily fall into the trap of 'us versus them' where they start to say " I need to help the Lord with my sword or gun and take care of these sinners because I am one of the saved".

And since religion is faith and belief based in an age of science and technology, all sorts of efforts are made to prove scientifically or rationally the tenets of the religion. As a result, there is a lot of pseudo-science running around. The existence of God cannot be proven scientifically - its a faith thing. Yes, there was a Jesus Christ (from historical records). No, His divinity cannot be proven - its faith. Heaven and hell - its faith. A human soul - its faith. A number of the people, places and events in the Bible have been proven to have occured by archaeology. The Bible as the word of God - its faith.

Religions and people that try to find a scientific basis for their faith are basically insecure and defensive about their beliefs. Insecurity tends to cause some really strange forms of aggressiveness in individuals and groups. Perhaps that is the basis for religious zealots.

[Primal Instinct]

I think that one of the more interesting tenets of any religion is that ONLY those members of that religion will get into heaven or whatever they may equate heaven to. The exclusivity of it all somehow suggests that there is an absolute lack of tolerance for those who believe in other religions. If there was a supreme being who created everything that exists why should we be so arrogant as to believe that we alone are the center of God's attention? What makes one species more deserving of God's love and attention than another? It is unlikely that we are the lone intelligence in the universe. You can't say that definitively because we are not learned enough yet to know the true answer. It is akin to the long ago egocentrist belief that the Sun and planets revolve around the Earth. We know now how that turned out.

As children, we strive and compete for attention from our parents, so can the argument be made that we believe that we're the shit with regards to God and religion. God is not a sole proprietorship owned by any one individual theocracy. We are all humans and I highly doubt that God would be so petty as to judge us for minor philosophical differences. Would you preclude one your own children from your love and attention because he/she fights with the others?

[Klash]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
God is not a sole proprietorship owned by any one individual theocracy. We are all humans and I highly doubt that God would be so petty as to judge us for minor philosophical differences.

Well said, is it also not a little too convenient that there is a religion that represent most philosophical idealogies and a majority of them follow the same book or different variations of the same book. Surely if god was to be 'so petty as to judge us for minor philosophical differences' he would lay out his pet peeves where it could not be interpreted in so many different ways. Do they even try to keep count of all the christian denominations anymore.


I also have a friend who is paralyzed, I think it is sad that in the name of God religions protest research that could help him walk again. Obviously 'YWHW' has no problem with being long winded. If god was so omnipotent why not under 'Thou shalt not kill' footnote: life begins at (whenever) - I mean look at how much bs those four words would clear up and I'm not even close to being omnipotent (had to make that clear )

Originally posted by Cogar
Therefore, my guess is that there were very few, if any, people in the Egyptian army that were worth saving. And if there were some Egyptians that were righteous, maybe they stayed in bed sick that day or something and were kept out of the "battle" in the same way that Lot and his family were kept out of Sodom.

You almost have to guess that way to protect your belief in a loving and just god.

This is another example of how YWHW could have been more clear in his text. I don't know maybe "The entire egyptian army was made up of giants begotten by fallen angels and were corrupt by their power over mere humans"

[Cogar]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
I think that one of the more interesting tenets of any religion is that ONLY those members of that religion will get into heaven or whatever they may equate heaven to. The exclusivity of it all somehow suggests that there is an absolute lack of tolerance for those who believe in other religions.

I have heard that comment before and it does make sense except for one thing--none of the religions agree with one another. For example, a Buddhist's "heaven" (nonexistence) is far different from a Christian's "heaven" (paradise), which is far different from a Mormon's "heaven" (being a god). Since none of them agrees, either all religions are wrong or only one is right. If one is right, it will be correct in stating that there is only one way to heaven, etc.