question on terri schiavo

[bonebreaker]

They ought to pull the plug on her parents, Jeb Bush and George Bush, and any other nut who can't see the light. I'm a parent and if my kids ever were to that point, I would gladly pull the plug myself, no check that, I would probably find a quicker way. Same for me, I don't want to be that way, let me check out with as much dignity as possible. THERE'S nobody home!!! Get over it and move on. AND GET A LIVING WILL FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. BB

[blm]

Originally posted by bonebreaker
They ought to pull the plug on her parents, Jeb Bush and George Bush, and any other nut who can't see the light.

Bottom line is that the government should have nothing to do with this.

[Face]

Originally posted by Kayak Jones
Don't quote the circling the drain process to me good bro. I've been in the field as a paramedic for almost 25 years now so I know the drill i'm sure far better than you and am not speaking out of my ass as some will on this subject.

Facts are facts and the fact is that you have no idea what she does or doesn,t feel.

Fact: Effects of ESRD can be terribly painfull as will almost anyone suffering from it will attest.

Fact: Although theoretically possible for the "feelings of hunger" as you put it to disappear in ketosis , the physical effects of dehydration are most unpleasant. Excruciating as described by many accounts, for at least some period of time.

Fact: Cardiac arrhythmias resulting in any degree of infarct are routinely and extremely painfull, to the extent that one of the primary functions of emergency cardiac care is to stop the pain and resulting tissue death.

Fact: The solution she was receiving through her g-tube was a standard high carb, nutrient solution. It is therfore highly unlikely that she was in any more of a ketonic state at any given time than you are I might be, unless we had intentionally caused it through a drastically reduced carb intake.

As far as this being a peacefull way to die, that would be a major subjective assumption on anyones part.

All very true, but Spidey still has a point in that she doesn't have a cortex; hence no sensory cortex and hence no sensation. Without sensation, she cannot feel pain.

[Kayak Jones]

There have been conflicting statements made by the physicians on both side of this case about the actual amount of cortex remaining. Not surprising, but only one side can be correct. I am just not sure which one it is and if they are gonna starve the poor thing to death on purpose, I sure wish they would get their shit together.

[Primal Instinct]

I'd think that her kidneys will probably fail soon and she'll be poisoned from it before she actually starves to death.

[bad14u]

Originally posted by blm
Bottom line is that the government should have nothing to do with this.

[lxorl]

wasting millions of dollars for nothing!!!

[spidey]

Originally posted by Kayak Jones
There have been conflicting statements made by the physicians on both side of this case about the actual amount of cortex remaining. Not surprising, but only one side can be correct. I am just not sure which one it is and if they are gonna starve the poor thing to death on purpose, I sure wish they would get their shit together.

I haven't heard and conflicting reports on that at all. CAT scans and especially MRI are pretty detailed and accurate. If an MRI showed the cortex had been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid, that is conclusive. It certainly won't grow back.

Also, take into account the doctors who are siding with the parents. Most of them have not even examined Terri Shiavo and the few that have are affiliated with Christian Right-To-Life movements. Their oppinions are hardly unbiased. They have an ideological interest in diagnosing her as not in a PVS.

Put that up against dozens of the best neurologists in the world who have actually examined her and spent literally hundreds of hours observing her and have all concluded she is in PVS.

[Puddles]

I think the parents are being selfish. Their daughter has no quality life. Keeping her alive artificially is painful for her husband and children, they deserve some finality to the loss of this woman. The husband has done all he can do to try to give her a chance to recover years ago but since that can't happen, why keep her alive like this? She has no joy, her family has no joy, it's time to let her go.

I would not want my family to suffer emotionally and financially if I was in a similar situation. With no hope of recovery, end it quickly in a dignified way, do not drag it out.

[johnstephenson]

Okay guy's this makes no f@#$ing sense, There's a farmer in southern alberta whom couldnt afford to feed his cattle because of the border closing (no money coming in) so his cattle were starving. anyways he was charged with cruelty to animals and fined 50,000 bucks and lost all his cattle and his farm because of the fine...so why can a person be charged for somthing he has no controll over but yet they can starve this women (a human). I dont know anyone who was starved to DEATH and lived to tell how much it hurt. Even if she was hurting how is she supposed to say anything. And I dont belive the whole thing with her friend saying "she said she would never want to live like this" because what if the friend just doesnt believe a person should live like this....its all word of mouth. oh well everyone has there own opinion, but I will tell you one thing, I dont give a flying f@#k if my daughter got married, she is still my baby and no one is going to make a life or death decision on my baby's life but her mother and I.

[lookin 4 juice]

Originally posted by johnstephenson
Okay guy's this makes no f@#$ing sense, There's a farmer in southern alberta whom couldnt afford to feed his cattle because of the border closing (no money coming in) so his cattle were starving. anyways he was charged with cruelty to animals and fined 50,000 bucks and lost all his cattle and his farm because of the fine...so why can a person be charged for somthing he has no controll over but yet they can starve this women (a human). I dont know anyone who was starved to DEATH and lived to tell how much it hurt. Even if she was hurting how is she supposed to say anything. And I dont belive the whole thing with her friend saying "she said she would never want to live like this" because what if the friend just doesnt believe a person should live like this....its all word of mouth. oh well everyone has there own opinion, but I will tell you one thing, I dont give a flying f@#k if my daughter got married, she is still my baby and no one is going to make a life or death decision on my baby's life but her mother and I.

I agree..... the world has so many rediculous double standards.

[TheStromba]

http://www.terrisfight.net/


Look at the video "open your eyes"

[rude]

Originally posted by TheStromba
http://www.terrisfight.net/


Look at the video "open your eyes"

Hopefully all the doctors and experts on this board will see that

I think the parents should be able to make the decision on her life. I think its very cruel on how she will die.

[imonboardtoo]

Credible Evidence: Doctors who treated her say she is brain dead. Therefore, she can't feel (emotions), enjoy, think, love...you get the picture. So, let her "live"? She ain't doin much living. On top of that, add the cost to keep her hospitalized and cared for, which could be huge for her husband/family/insurors. Nobody wants to talk about that, but it's an issue.

On the other hand, to withdraw food is as much killing (although our justice system differs with me) as shooting her in the head. It's just the timing that's different.

My opinion is that the husband should be able to decide because he is legally entitled to do so, and she gave him that right when she married him. But, I hate what he's doing.

[TheStromba]

Originally posted by imonboardtoo
Credible Evidence: Doctors who treated her say she is brain dead. Therefore, she can't feel (emotions), enjoy, think, love...you get the picture. So, let her "live"?

If you have not seen the video I posted above, watch it.

Either the doctors are wrong, or the video is a fraud. A women that is brain dead cannot open her eyes on command.

I am pretty conservative when it comes to how my taxes are spent, but I have NO problem with this.

Fuck giving Iraq, Saudis' Isreal money and aid -

Fuck paying for health care for illegal immigrants.

THIS is what tax dollars are really for, to care for and protect the most helpless in society.

[johnstephenson]

Originally posted by TheStromba
If you have not seen the video I posted above, watch it.

Either the doctors are wrong, or the video is a fraud. A women that is brain dead cannot open her eyes on command.

I am pretty conservative when it comes to how my taxes are spent, but I have NO problem with this.

Fuck giving Iraq, Saudis' Isreal money and aid -

Fuck paying for health care for illegal immigrants.

THIS is what tax dollars are really for, to care for and protect the most helpless in society.

Damn rights bro.. I agree 100%

[imonboardtoo]

Stromba - You turned me around, man. That website has alot of stuff besides video. It's powerful. That guy is a total dirtbag. I volunteer to help him starve to death!

[house1]

my biggest peeve about this whole issue is the overstepping of congress-

its time to put some limits on congress -- they believe there is none at this point -

it becomes very dangerous if the government feels they can just step in and change things when they feel like it -

they didnt belong in the baseball stuff and they sure the fuck dont belong in this matter

[Primal Instinct]

Originally posted by TheStromba
If you have not seen the video I posted above, watch it.

Either the doctors are wrong, or the video is a fraud. A women that is brain dead cannot open her eyes on command.

Stromba,

I watched these videos and saw the same clips (but much longer footage on ABCNews and MSNBC). I have to take issue with this whole thing. We see a short video clip of Terri's face with her moving her eyes around. We have no true context for these clips on this website. This clip has been edited to only show what is purported to be "response" and possibly "interaction" yet on the full uninterrupted clips, the parents were repeatedly and unsuccessfully trying to illicit response from Terri prior to this and even after.


For the first clip of Terri opening her eyes, we have no baseline information concerning how long the family was prodding her to respond to this same command. We need to remember that there is over 6 HOURS of videotape taken by Terri's parents. This is the best that they can offer to bolster their case? For all we know, they were repeatedly asking Terri to open her eyes for 2 hours before this edited version and then at some point, she did. This doesn't mean that she responded to their commands. She may have just woke up and nothing more. Show a complete clip with the prior activity and maybe that would convince me. However, dozens of respectable medical professionals HAVE reviewed such complete footage and have spent actual onsite time with her. They have concluded that there is no conscious and controlled movements from Terri. There is also no upper brain functions either, as it is dead and replaced by spinal fluid. It was strictly the intact lower brain stem activity which governs respiratory and other involuntary physical functions that Terri exhibits. The state and federal courts all have repeatedly agreed with this based upon seeing the ENTIRE evidentiary findings that WE don't have complete access to.


These clips are edited to appear as if Terri is alert and responsive. These clips are designed to create a fervor and muster support for the continuance of her life support sytem. A feeding tube IS life support.


I have also seen the balloon clip in much more detail than we are shown from this site's clip. I've noticed that there were no full shots of the man holding and moving the balloon in front of Terri, only closeups of Terri's eyes moving and a man speaking in a rewarding tone. However, the full scene shown on the news had a man standing in front of Terri moving a balloon in front of her but if you really looked closely, he was moving the balloon to follow HER eyes, not the other way around. This could be evidenced by his sudden changes of direction AFTER her eyes darted the opposite direction. There is no credibility to that videoclip.


We need to remember that the site you linked to is NOT an objective site. It is motivated by personal (or more likely political or religious Right-To-Life groups) concerns. Of course, Terri's parents will do anything to keep her physical remains alive, even though she has no human consciousness characteristics left. I believe that the parents have actually convinced themselves that Terri can be cured someday or that living like that is better than dying. I feel that their motivations are no longer geared towards Terri's benefit, as much as for their own selfish interests. They need to let her go peacefully. As for the claims of money for the husband, they are all bunk. This demonization of him is rediculous. He spent most of the settlement money on Terri's healthcare and lawyer fees over the last 10 years or so. We'll see who REALLY is interested in money when Terri's parents sue the husband in a civil court for punitive damages.

[cowgirl]

We don't know if Terri is feeling any pain,
but the whole nation is "in" pain
as we try and make sense of this whole issue.

[TheStromba]

PI

I realize that the site has an agenda.

There is so much bullshit on both sides, its hard to know what to believe.

I am also not really objective because
I don't think that it is humane to starve someone to death. You would get put in jail if you did it to a dog.

If it was a respirator, it would be different in my opinion.

I admit that I want to believe the videos.

If there is ANY doubt about her condition, then this should not happen.

[Primal Instinct]

Fair enuff, Stromba. I have been speaking to some friends in different areas of Fla recently (orlando, West Palm, Tamps-Clearwater and Jacksonville) and they have been bombarded locally on their news stations with reporters reporting unvetted information and heresay. If it infuriates people enough one way or the other it is good for them because reporting on protesters/arrests = good viewer ratings for their network. This whole ordeal is saddening.

[Turbo3000]

If you actually think because she opens her eyes for a short clip in a video then she really is interacting then you need to be shot. I am so tired of this shit on the news, and I am so tired of the government sticking its head in everything now. Too bad a lot of people are asking the government to get into this situation. SHE IS A VEGETABLE. How can you not see that?

[johnstephenson]

Okay bud if you had a kid and this happend to her then call her a f@#*ing vegetable...In your opinion thats all she is, Not to her parents, and anyone who thinks otherwise should be SHOT.. (Not fair to judge if it isn't your kid). I would love to have someone with big enough balls to tell me my kid isn't worth saving because they think she's a veggie. And I dont know why everyone is mad at the government because they gave all you veggie believers what you want. That's why I f@#%ing hate them.