Now, the government is REALLY starting to scare the shit out of me.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

just so everyone knows where i stand. i agree with red 100%. nobody should be able to tell a women what she can do with her body. the government should have no say in abortion.

If it was only a case of the woman's body, I would also agree. But, there is the matter of a totally innocent baby whose life is at stake too.

See, that's where the crux of the abortion argument lies. When does life begin? A fetus can survive at 24 weeks (there are living examples). Does life begin then? Does it begin when the baby breaths it's first breath? Does it begin at conception? I personally believe life begins when the first measurable brain activity can be detected. After all, our brains determine who we are. People are judged "dead" when they no longer have brain activity. At any rate, until that question can be answered authoritatively, abortion will always be highly controversal.

For the pro-lifers I know (including myself), it isn't a question of a woman's right to choose. It's a question about when is it OK to kill a baby.

That's where I think both sides are missing each other entirely. They scream "It's my body and I should be able to make decisions affecting my body."

Well, if it was ONLY your body, I don't think you would see any argument from anyone. Take it a little farther, should you be able to kill your newborn baby? It can't fend for itself. It needs to be fed by you and takes up a LOT of your time. How is that any different than killing it 5 minutes ago before it actually took it's first breath?

[redsquirrel]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

Red, the second a women dies because she wasnt allowed to abort a baby will be the second that the whole nation goes nuts and that bill will be over very fast even if they do make abortion illeagal.

well, maybe I misread the information....I'm not saying it happened, or a woman died...I'm saying the Supreme Court overturned the ruling in Nebraska.

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by spidey

If it was only a case of the woman's body, I would also agree. But, there is the matter of a totally innocent baby whose life is at stake too.

See, that's where the crux of the abortion argument lies. When does life begin? A fetus can survive at 24 weeks (there are living examples). Does life begin then? Does it begin when the baby breaths it's first breath? Does it begin at conception? I personally believe life begins when the first measurable brain activity can be detected. After all, our brains determine who we are. People are judged "dead" when they no longer have brain activity. At any rate, until that question can be answered authoritatively, abortion will always be highly controversal.

For the pro-lifers I know (including myself), it isn't a question of a woman's right to choose. It's a question about when is it OK to kill a baby.

That's where I think both sides are missing each other entirely. They scream "It's my body and I should be able to make decisions affecting my body."

Well, if it was ONLY your body, I don't think you would see any argument from anyone. Take it a little farther, should you be able to kill your newborn baby? It can't fend for itself. It needs to be fed by you and takes up a LOT of your time. How is that any different than killing it 5 minutes ago before it actually took it's first breath?

Spidey shut up. lol. If your daughter gets raped by some piece of shit and gets pregnant from it, would you want your daughter to have that baby? If your 15 year old daughter is out one night and is messing around with her boy friend and she gets pregnant, do you want her to have that baby? you speak very well about how things work down on paper, but i would bet the bank if it were to happen to you, you would have a totally different view.

[redsquirrel]

[quote=spidey]If it was only a case of the woman's body, I would also agree. But, there is the matter of a totally innocent baby whose life is at stake too.

[quote]


Don't get me wrong- I don't agree w/ partial birth abortions, unless the mother's life is in danger. I also don't agree with an abortion after the 1st trimester. So, just because I may be pro choice doesn't make me a baby killer.

I understand your point of view about someone has to look out for the child's interest. I agree. But what gets under so many people's skin is that the government DOES have some say in what I do w/ my body. It becomes a privacy issue. And our privacy is becoming less and less these days.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by redsquirrel

Actually, it is an argument.

There was a ruling in Nebraska that was deemed unconsitutional because the mother's life was in danger, and the Supreme Court overturned it. In that instance, the state refused the woman an abortion. That same case was recently brought back to the courts in May and the Supreme Court is hearing the case again.

Secondly, the polls and studies I see, 60% of Americans are NOT against abortion. The other polls I see are that GWB's approval rating has taken a 10 point drop.

And if you want to talk about clouding an issue- don't you think that this nomination comes at perfect time to divert the attention away from our deteriorating control in Iraq, the Social Security debacle, and most importantly- the Carl Rove scandal.??? It's a great strategy- really.

And I am still beggin someone to tell me the justification by being pro-life, yet support capital punishment.

The numbers I have seen are almost exactly the opposite.

As for the "Karl Rove scandal", PLEASE. There is no scandal. It has been shown that Rove was informed of Plaim's identity by a REPORTER. Furthermore, the CIA itself outed her years ago. Even Wilson has admitted his wife was not a covert agent at the time Novak published the article "outing" her. Rove called NO ONE. Reporters called him about an entirely different issue and then tacked something on the end of the conversation about Wilson or Plaim and Rove said "I heard that too". That was Rove's contribution. If you REALLY want to dig around, you might find an interview that Wilson did with Time (I think it was Time) where Wilson posed a theoretical question to the interviewer: "Suppose my wife was a secrete agent." The reporter then asked if that was true and Wilson said "Oh no, but suppose she was." Now, any reporter knows that when someone poses a hypothetical like that it is likely to be close to the truth so you could say that Wilson himself outed his wife.

The man just has a huge target on his back because he orchestrated Bush's win. The dems would just LOVE to nail his hide to the wall. But when Sandy Berger stuffed classified documents in his SOCKS, documents that have to this day not been recovered, you heard hardly anything about it. It was over in a week and all he had to say was that it was a mistake on his part and CERTAINLY not willfull disregard for the law or national security. But when Rove says "I heard that too", it's HORRIBLE and he needs to go to JAIL. My GOD, what an evil man. It's laughable. Mark my words, it will be found that he did absolutely NOTHING wrong.

As for my justification for being pro-life, see my reply to Bouncer's post above. The difference is: The BABY didn't do anything wrong for which he/she should die. A criminal who committs heinous crimes like that Duncon fellow that broke into a house, tied up everyone, kidnapped an 8 year old girl and a 9 year old boy, then went back in and beat everyone to death with a hammer while the children tied up in the car listened to their mother, brother, and others scream and beg for mercy, then came out and showed the hammer to the kids and bragged about it, then raped the kids multiple times and killed the little boy. That man should absolutely die. Their is no comparison between killing him and killing an innocent baby; none at all. One willfully and knowingly commited heinous crimes and the only crime the other committed was being concieved at an inopportune time in the mother's life, usually, by the willfull and knowing actions of the mother herself.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

Spidey shut up. lol. If your daughter gets raped by some piece of shit and gets pregnant from it, would you want your daughter to have that baby? If your 15 year old daughter is out one night and is messing around with her boy friend and she gets pregnant, do you want her to have that baby? you speak very well about how things work down on paper, but i would bet the bank if it were to happen to you, you would have a totally different view.

It would be a tortured decision for sure. It doesn't change my view though. See, I think there are exceptions to ANY rule. I think there are instances in which I should be allowed to kill my neighbor (if he raped my wife for instance)!

It is impossible, as you know, to say with certainty what I would do in a hypothetical situation like the ones you posed. I like to think I would do the right thing (by my standard) and allow the baby to be born. If she/we didn't want the child, there are long lines at every adoption agency in the USA. Someone would want the baby. It certainly wouldn't be the baby's fault that his mother got raped or was too young.

Alternatively, I might come closer to allowing an abortion if it were performed within a week or two of conception, before brain activity can be detected. I simply don't know and that is an honest answer.

Even if I caved and had her get an abortion later on, I would still think it was wrong; possibly murder. I have been know to do things that were wrong before though. I am not perfect.

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by spidey

It would be a tortured decision for sure. It doesn't change my view though. See, I think there are exceptions to ANY rule. I think there are instances in which I should be allowed to kill my neighbor (if he raped my wife for instance)!

It is impossible, as you know, to say with certainty what I would do in a hypothetical situation like the ones you posed. I like to think I would do the right thing (by my standard) and allow the baby to be born. If she/we didn't want the child, there are long lines at every adoption agency in the USA. Someone would want the baby. It certainly wouldn't be the baby's fault that his mother got raped or was too young.

Alternatively, I might come closer to allowing an abortion if it were performed within a week or two of conception, before brain activity can be detected. I simply don't know and that is an honest answer.

Even if I caved and had her get an abortion later on, I would still think it was wrong; possibly murder. I have been know to do things that were wrong before though. I am not perfect.

This is my point though. You speak about something with so much passion and so much drive in your arguement yet you admit if it happened to you, you dont know what you would do. How can you believe in something but not believe in it? You talk about being pro-life but then when it hits you personally you suddenly are unsure.

What if your wife got rapped and you thought she should have the baby and she didnt want to? Would you call her a baby killer? would you think that it was her decision or would you say to her, "thats an innocent baby" lol

Lets stop talking about Dems and Conservatives and all the BS and lets get real here bro. So many people have such strong views and say Pro-Life! but when the table is turned its a very different story.

bush is pro-life. you can bet your bottom fucking dollar that if his daughter got gang rapped and got pregnant that he would do the abortion himself!! ok, thats a little over the top. but i think you get my point.

lets cut the shit in america and get real here people. i feel like im the only sain one left.

[redsquirrel]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

lets cut the shit in america and get real here people. i feel like im the only sain one left.

I couldn't agree more. I feel less and less "free" every day. It feels like the Conservatives are taking over this country and their views and beliefs to go along with it.

As a private citizen, I no longer feel my government is looking out for me or my interests....especially with the huge shortage of Dems there are in the Senate and House. How can they be looking out for what's important to me if they don't have the same views?

[IntensityX]

Man will this abortion issue ever die for crying out loud this have been going on since I was a kid let it die for crying out loud if you are pro life then good for you if you are for abortion then good for you I'm telling you be glad that so far we don't have a government telling us that we can't have kids that's when you start getting angry and go after the government then.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by redsquirrel

Actually, that's exactly what the case is about. They overturned the Nebraska ruling that banned partial births even if the mother's life was in danger. The Supreme Court deemed it unconstitutional.

...Now it's back on the table, and partial births NO MATTER WHAT may be banned.

The issue wasn't addressed in the bill as I remember. That is EXACTLY why it was struck down. This just boosts my argument. It will always be legal to save the woman's life.

Secondly, partial birth abortion is NEVER needed to save a woman's life according to several medical doctors I have seen interviewed. Can you even think of a scenario where it would be necessary to save a woman's life? They can alway take the baby by cesserian (sp?) remember. By the time the head of the baby is exposed, dilation is only a few cm from that required for normal birth anyway. How can punturing that baby's skull (and it definitely IS a baby at this point, fully formed and functioning) and sucking out it's brain help the mother? Partial Birth Abortion is the most horrifying, hideous, and heartless currently legal medical procedure in existence. Virtually nothing could possibly validate a procedure that brutally murders BABIES only minutes from birth. Again, I pose the question: What is the difference between that and just killing your newborn five minutes after birth? It wasn't a baby five minutes ago. how did it suddenly achieve human being status in the last five minutes?

[spidey]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

This is my point though. You speak about something with so much passion and so much drive in your arguement yet you admit if it happened to you, you dont know what you would do. How can you believe in something but not believe in it? You talk about being pro-life but then when it hits you personally you suddenly are unsure.

What if your wife got rapped and you thought she should have the baby and she didnt want to? Would you call her a baby killer? would you think that it was her decision or would you say to her, "thats an innocent baby" lol

Lets stop talking about Dems and Conservatives and all the BS and lets get real here bro. So many people have such strong views and say Pro-Life! but when the table is turned its a very different story.

bush is pro-life. you can bet your bottom fucking dollar that if his daughter got gang rapped and got pregnant that he would do the abortion himself!! ok, thats a little over the top. but i think you get my point.

lets cut the shit in america and get real here people. i feel like im the only sain one left.

I am not unsure of what I believe. I think I would have the strength to do what I feel is right. I can't put it any plainer.

If I caved, I don't know if I could ever look in the mirror again and not be ashamed.

All I was saying is that ANY hypothetical is impossible to answer because you never really know what you would do untill actually faced with that situation.

How many people have you known who said "Oh yeah, if someone mugged me, I would take their gun away and kick their ass" only to find out when they actually get mugged that they are frozen with fear of getting shot.

You just can't anwer hypotheticals like that cause you NEVER know what you would do until you are faced with it.

I did my best to explain my position and I answered what I was capable of answering. If that isn't good enough, I don't know what to tell you.

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by spidey

I am not unsure of what I believe. I think I would have the strength to do what I feel is right. I can't put it any plainer.

If I caved, I don't know if I could ever look in the mirror again and not be ashamed.

All I was saying is that ANY hypothetical is impossible to answer because you never really know what you would do untill actually faced with that situation.

How many people have you known who said "Oh yeah, if someone mugged me, I would take their gun away and kick their ass" only to find out when they actually get mugged that they are frozen with fear of getting shot.

You just can't anwer hypotheticals like that cause you NEVER know what you would do until you are faced with it.

I did my best to explain my position and I answered what I was capable of answering. If that isn't good enough, I don't know what to tell you.

Not looking for an answer at all. Just trying to make you realize that what you speak of with so much passion can be broken in your mind very easily. You know god damn well that deep down in your gut you would not want your wife or daughter to have a baby from being rapped.. Weather or not you think its right or wrong.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

Not looking for an answer at all. Just trying to make you realize that what you speak of with so much passion can be broken in your mind very easily. You know god damn well that deep down in your gut you would not want your wife or daughter to have a baby from being rapped.. Weather or not you think its right or wrong.

No, I wouldn't. But that doesn't mean I would compromise my principles either. Like I said before, it would be an agonizing choice to have to make and I hope I would be strong enough to make the right one.

Most of the bills seeking to limit abortion make exceptions in the cases of rape, incest or life of the mother. I would have to make the choice in your hypothetical situations regardless if these laws were passed.

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by spidey

No, I wouldn't. But that doesn't mean I would compromise my principles either. Like I said before, it would be an agonizing choice to have to make and I hope I would be strong enough to make the right one.

Most of the bills seeking to limit abortion make exceptions in the cases of rape, incest or life of the mother. I would have to make the choice in your hypothetical situations regardless if these laws were passed.

ok then. my hypothetical situations have made my point. my whole point was that if this were to happen to you and your family, that you wouldnt be on here talking so strongly about your beliefs. i can promise you that they would change some. people in general dont know what they believe until they go threw it. myself included. its our nature to "think" we believe something and then once we go threw it, our belief has changed a bit. you shouldnt have such a strong oppinion until you walk a mile in some peoples shoes.

ok, that arguement is over. and now to break the tension.

Bouncer 1

Spidey 0

[THE BOUNCER]

I can promise you one more thing. Every women on this board agrees with me...

[spidey]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

ok then. my hypothetical situations have made my point. my whole point was that if this were to happen to you and your family, that you wouldnt be on here talking so strongly about your beliefs. i can promise you that they would change some. people in general dont know what they believe until they go threw it. myself included. its our nature to "think" we believe something and then once we go threw it, our belief has changed a bit. you shouldnt have such a strong oppinion until you walk a mile in some peoples shoes.

ok, that arguement is over. and now to break the tension.

Bouncer 1

Spidey 0

HA, "I have only BEGUN to fight", LOL.

No tension here. Just a point though, my beliefs WOULD NOT change one iota and I would so talk just as strongly about them. Just for the record, nearly every female I know with the exception of my mother has been either molested as a child or raped as an adult. Fortunately, no pregnancies resulted but the possibility was there for several of them. My family did go through these scenarios and make some difficult choices that, thankfully, didn't have to be implemented. While I haven't had to deal with my daughters (I have only one son, soon to be two sons) or my wife being raped, I have been close to people making such decisions. I have always admired their strength in making the choices they did.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

I can promise you one more thing. Every women on this board agrees with me...

And I would be careful about broad generalizations like that. I know several women who are pro-life; some of then more rabid than I.

[Puddles]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

I can promise you one more thing. Every women on this board agrees with me...

Originally Posted by puddles

We're all girls at conception, then something goes wrong and some of you turn into boys.

'nuff said.