Bringing the troops home - a friendly discussion.

[Shibby]

It reappears when one culture feels like it's loosing itself. In turn it will over saturate it's culture to the point where those who were once being tolerable will turn intolerable. I think it is similar to the backlash with all the rap music these days. With all these rappers trying to flaunt where they are and give the appearance that they are still "real" sickens everyone to death. It makes people wonder why they were even given a chance to begin with if all they are going to do is waste away the opportunities (not just the rap industry).

[hlcn8]

what perturbs me is the lack of progress on the part of the iragi government in that they've failed to reach any major milestones set before them. they haven't created a cohesive government, and they don't really have a need to while we're still there. I think the threat of pulling out would light a fire under their asses and they may actually then get something done.

[house1]

we are not wanted there by the iraqi gov and many of its people --

fuck them - we are so busy taking care of other countries our own citizens fall by the wayside in this country - the politicians only worry about this country around election times --

bush will go down as the biggest black eye the republican party ever put in office --

need some one in there that will put the shine back on this country as it is very tarnished

[NewbieChris]

I don't normally say this on an internet forum because its so controversial, but the idea of a war on terror is ingenious. I don't know if this was our Presidents intention, but a war on and idea is a sustainable war...forever. You can never defeat terrorism and you can never bring it to an end. For some people this idea is amazing and will sustain them and profit them for a long time. But that is just the problem in my mind. American politicians aren't thinking about our country, they are thinking about re-election that is why I firmly believe in TERM LIMITS!

[beefcake]

I like how we are back in debt again. Just like the debt that george bush sr put us into. We're wasting our money and lives over there for no good. Those middle eastern countries are a lost cause. All we are to them are a bunch of christian infidels. Their government is like a dog chasing it's own tail. Only solution to changing them is to rule them. We need to pull out and focus our efforts on keeping them out of our country. We can't play the world police man all the time, eventhough I know that's not why we're there.

[trip]

yeah, newbiechris, that is a major part of the problem bush made

bouncer, the problem the troops have is too protect themselves they must go in force or they would be picked off like flies because they do not know the area, who's a friend or foe, and who can be trusted, thus they are right in being there in huge numbers

chris, imho, is very close to the REAL issues

FOLLOW THE MONEY

okay, going back 7000 years, islam believes that WEALTH IS AQUIRED THRU CONTROLLING PEOPLE, and that CHURCH AND STATE IS ONE IN THE SAME

now, realize that was a generally accepted idea until 1776, you know, the greatest idea in the history of the world, TOO HAVE TRUE FREEDOM WE NEED SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

and thus the revolution began, it defeated the british, it defeated slavery, it triumphed in world war 1 & world war 2, it decimated communists in a war of peoples wills, it brought down the iron curtain, the wall in germany, etc. etc. etc.

only blemish is vietman, which i will not go into cause it's a seperate topic, although we can put it in the loss column

now along the way, with more communication, telephones, tranatlantic lines, tv's, airplanes, commerce among countries ideas started tooo travel and the good ones caught on

yet in islam, they controlled, like present day iran, and ye old russia, the control of information, with bad information you get bad idea's and bad value systems

so, let's take us too the resuragence of radical islam, xmas 1980, russia invades afganistan, the last dying breath of communism showin the world the force it was really made of, osam boogies on over there because he beliefs in the inalienable right of church and state which afganistan is, he fights for afganistan even though it is not his country, ye old usa, sends money and guns on the down low to fund the afgans, and what happened , osama see's all theses others believers boogieing on over and he starts taking name and phone numbers, cause you know these are his bro's from around the world

so, good old us, essentially thru supplying just enough guns and money too frustrate russia to all get out, and finally put a nail in the coffin of russia, it only took us ten years of dragging it out

yet, now, osam is beside himself pissed at us, why, cause he thought we could have helped them win the war in two years instead of ten, and saved thousands of lives

so, now, with russia gone, since never before in the history of afganny town has there been anything but mountains and poppyseeds, and a zero economy, all of a sudden they got tons of gun and guns and more guns and ammo out the ying, hey, they got themselves a black market buziness in ammunations that has been running flat out for ten years, what does he do

comes up with a knew goal, you know, russia the number two power tried to destroy the right of church and state to be one, it's obvious that idea is going outta style, ie, the buggy whip

what does he do? he whips up the troops, sets a big humoungous goal, whoop number one, usa, cause they let our bro's die in afgany, and they believe in church and state being seperate

and walla now we got us a spammer war

so, it's a war of two opposing ideas, freedom of religion, or one religion

place ur bets, who will win, how long will it take, what will happen today, tommorrow next monght, laddy da de da

more tommorry: follow da real money

day after what bush is doing right, and wrong and what he might not be telling us

[fog_hat1981]

Trip you are a trip my friend - I love how you break things down but do you really talk like you write/type ???

Anyways - to go along with what you said I'm a firm believer that to change this cultural battle is to empower the women of the country - to create a middle class that others will look to in envy and desire to aspire to - now how the US goes about making this happen is where it gets sticky but as of now I know they're giving women money, providing "middle-class" lifestyles, setting up daycare facilities and treating women the way they "should" be treated....

The more you can get the women involved the more men you'll see follow - of course we aren't shy of throwing money and lifestyle changes at the men either......

The hardest part is the area of religion - that will probably never go away and will most likely be the only real reason we can't conceivably "win" this war....

[trip]

lol, no i don't talk like that, but when folks pay me, or ask nicely, i try hard to explain hard concepts in a KISS way so anyone could understand

you get a prize, womens rights in 3rd world country is destroying the power of control by men, who control thru earned rank/rights, versus creating anything new, or helping folks do better

that's why i mentioned it will take a few generations

bottom line is, when given a choice everyone chooses freedom versus control

but, we gotta deal with right now

see ya ll tommorry

[trip]

ooppppppps, forgot one huge point

islam radicals believe, WEALTH IS CREATED THRU CONTROLLING PEOPLE

FREEDOM BELIEVES, wealth is created thru the control of assets

for some reason, assets are much more amendable

and note, the more folks we have in da world the more wealth we need, wealth being food, shelter, water, air, etc.

see im my simple way it's a no brainer, that's why i call da guys human spammers, yeah, pain in dee ass, ain't gonna change the world one mofo iota in the long run

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by trip

ooppppppps, forgot one huge point

islam radicals believe, WEALTH IS CREATED THRU CONTROLLING PEOPLE

FREEDOM BELIEVES, wealth is created thru the control of assets

for some reason, assets are much more amendable

and note, the more folks we have in da world the more wealth we need, wealth being food, shelter, water, air, etc.

see im my simple way it's a no brainer, that's why i call da guys human spammers, yeah, pain in dee ass, ain't gonna change the world one mofo iota in the long run

So you're saying they're taking a Marxist approach and the US isn't??? Not being confrontational btw - just trying to better understand what you mean....

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by fog_hat1981

So you're saying they're taking a Marxist approach and the US isn't??? Not being confrontational btw - just trying to better understand what you mean....

ya, I'm not following either. lol.

trip, just say what you mean instead of trying to compare it to something else. lol. makes it more confusing.

[Mr incredible]

Originally Posted by Shibby

I watched a thing on the ESPY's last night about Norther Ireland. It really made me think that being there is useless. Basically these two guys, one catholic one protestant, started a basketball organization to allow kids who normally wouldn't interact to play together. The project behind it is to teach the kids of the future generations tolerance. That if you can play on a team together you can learn to live together. Previously the military has been brought in, home grown militias have tried to solve the problem but nothing has worked. So these two guys have basically took it upon themselves to help teach the kids not to hate.

Your missing something my freind, Northern Ireland did work, the political factions with terrorist associations never got what they wanted. It wasn't until they renounced violence and laid down arms that they were allowed to the political table, to air their views in public in a democratic way.

The catalyst to the end of that era of violence was 9/11. Then Blair and Bush stood shoulder to shoulder in the fight against terrorism and BANG right there America had spoken not only about Alkaida but about Shin Fein/IRA. I'm not saying any more but you can read between the lines.

The point is there are different opinions on this, strong ones, but one thing most will agree on is that you have to renounce violence to get respect, as opposed to fear. You can't give in to terrorism, you may have to compromise and let the past be just that in order to move forwards.

In this instance though the answer is not to pull out, it will take time and it may be that if a religious orientated party puts in for election (so long as they renounce violence) they should be given the chance to speak and people given the chance to vote, after all its there country.

[trip]

no no no think history here, 7000 years, more people u had, more you could farm, etc., wealth was created thru physical wealth

places like afgan still have that mentality, they don't have assets, ie, iron ore, sulphur, coal, oil, etc.

in computer terms, it's an issue of scalability

i'm not trying to be confusing, i'm trying to get too the core of issues




overall, right now, i'm kinda with incredible, no dif than bully on the school yard, he won't stop until he feels consitent resistance, if not he may or may not change, he might remain a bully for life, or have a big change in highschool etc.

the future, is kinda unpredictabel, lol, yet, if u don't have boundries people will get use to violating them and think nothing of it

[Shibby]

Originally Posted by Mr incredible

Your missing something my freind, Northern Ireland did work, the political factions with terrorist associations never got what they wanted. It wasn't until they renounced violence and laid down arms that they were allowed to the political table, to air their views in public in a democratic way.

The catalyst to the end of that era of violence was 9/11. Then Blair and Bush stood shoulder to shoulder in the fight against terrorism and BANG right there America had spoken not only about Alkaida but about Shin Fein/IRA. I'm not saying any more but you can read between the lines.

It was my understanding from the clip that all the war is gone, but the prejudice is still very strong and dangerous. That was more the point I was getting at, that over in the middle east they don't accept each others right to believe in what they do. So even if we got rid of "terrorist" there would still be a lot of senseless bombings, shootings, beatings.

[beefcake]

Religion is the root of all evil it seems. Religious fanatics are the most corrupt people. If only jesus knew what was going to happen.

[blm]

^^^^ that's awesome, lol

[Shibby]

Originally Posted by beefcake

Religion is the root of all evil it seems. Religious fanatics are the most corrupt people. If only jesus knew what was going to happen.

I love that picture.

[THE BOUNCER]

gods son wont like that one. lol

[Kayak Jones]

Someone said the terrorists are like cockroaches. What do you do when you want to rid a house of cockroaches? Well down here in Texas we leave the house for a day or so but on the way out the door we gas the whole stinking place with bug bombs. If a couple of em works good, then a bunch works better. Yep, we also killed the spiders, the ants, flies, and pretty much any other vermin that lived there but collateral damage is inevitable. If you use the right stuff, then the residual kills off the eggs as well. Some of em may eventually come back, so the treatment should be applied as needed. Draw your own conclusions.

[babyblues]

Originally Posted by hlcn8

what perturbs me is the lack of progress on the part of the iragi government in that they've failed to reach any major milestones set before them. they haven't created a cohesive government, and they don't really have a need to while we're still there. I think the threat of pulling out would light a fire under their asses and they may actually then get something done.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. At some point we have to let the Iraqi government find their own way. We did it 230 years ago. We even had our own civil war. Do you realize we lost more men in the Civil War than in all other wars combined? We still have some Confederates at heart who still think the "South" was right. Hell, there's even a book by that name, "The South Was Right!" We had the help of France in the War of Independence, but we survived against the greatest fighting force in the world at that time, and we survived our Civil War and became the greatest nation in the world. Would we have let some cocky ass sons of bitches come in and tell us how to run our country? Isn't that what the Pilgrims were trying to escape when they came here in the first place? Well, supposedly....money was part of it too. They thought they were going to get rich. Anyway....my point is that you might be surprised what the Iraqi government could accomplish if we weren't around to hold their hand the whole time. Let them figure it out.

So we went in and ousted Sadam. OK, now we give the country to the Iraqi people and get the fuck out.

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by Kayak Jones

Someone said the terrorists are like cockroaches. What do you do when you want to rid a house of cockroaches? Well down here in Texas we leave the house for a day or so but on the way out the door we gas the whole stinking place with bug bombs. If a couple of em works good, then a bunch works better. Yep, we also killed the spiders, the ants, flies, and pretty much any other vermin that lived there but collateral damage is inevitable. If you use the right stuff, then the residual kills off the eggs as well. Some of em may eventually come back, so the treatment should be applied as needed. Draw your own conclusions.

Ahahahaha - I love that mindset - my grandpa used to do this at our lakehouse like 12 times a year - I think he enjoyed it way too much ...

[trip]

lol, beefcake, one could say in ancient times, god was a creation of leaders, to supply answers to mysteries to the commoners, which they used to exert propoganda power over too control them, and heck, in certain ways it hadda be back that too have any cohesiveness to survive

i'm not anti-religion, actually very spiritual, just pointing out different way of looking at it

all other good posts

and no,i'm not offended by anything, i'm abiding by bouncers request, civility

i'm busy today

analogy: terrorists are just communists in burkhas who don't have a country

work on that, lol