Who doesn't believe in religion?

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

how do you know god exists?

I don't. That is why it is called faith.

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Also, please don't confuse me with someone like George Bush. I have faith in God and religion for many reasons. That does not, however, mean I discount science or progress for it. I believe faith is a malleable aspect of life. I believe God has one expectation of us, and that is community. The idea of being kind to your neighbor. Being good to the people around you. Generally having good will and not being a dick. Like I said earlier. I don't take the book as an absolute truth. Rather a tale to remind us of community. Things as old as the Bible date to society.

[goliath]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

I don't. That is why it is called faith.

--

Also, please don't confuse me with someone like George Bush. I have faith in God and religion for many reasons. That does not, however, mean I discount science or progress for it. I believe faith is a malleable aspect of life. I believe God has one expectation of us, and that is community. The idea of being kind to your neighbor. Being good to the people around you. Generally having good will and not being a dick. Like I said earlier. I don't take the book as an absolute truth. Rather a tale to remind us of community. Things as old as the Bible date to society.

so it is a tale then? where did you read about this notion of heaven? on a bar napkin?

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

stupid, no....delusional, yes.

and why not, it's very similar in nature to hundreds of story's which have been labeled fairy tails?

Its different in the sense the the community around you does not label it as such. That is why society makes religion what it is. Its not just a tale because society does not want it to be. Its different because it is someones faith. Its different because its not respectful of that faith and belief system.

You and your deviant behavior.

[goliath]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

Its different in the sense the the community around you does not label it as such. That is why society makes religion what it is. Its not just a tale because society does not want it to be. Its different because it is someones faith. Its different because its not respectful of that faith and belief system.

You and your deviant behavior.

so if enough people believe in something then it must be true?

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

so it is a tale then? where did you read about this notion of heaven? on a bar napkin?

Oh, I completely believe the Bible is not divinely inspired. I believe it was written for the purpose above. That doesn't mean though, that I can't believe some of the books still have moral absolutes in them

I believe in organized religion, because I see it as something other than that. I see it as community. The sense that we live together.

And, I don't remember giving you a definition of what I think Heaven is...so no. I was not found on a napkin.

[THE BOUNCER]

now the argument is starting to get less intelligent and is starting to go around in circles. this is the problem. these arguments never really end or come to a conclusion. the only thing we can do is worry about ourselves and what we believe in and not worry about what others believe.

[goliath]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

Oh, I completely believe the Bible is not divinely inspired. I believe it was written for the purpose above. That doesn't mean though, that I can't believe some of the books still have moral absolutes in them

I believe in organized religion, because I see it as something other than that. I see it as community. The sense that we live together.

And, I don't remember giving you a definition of what I think Heaven is...so no. I was not found on a napkin.

so if the bible was written by men and for men, is it not fallible by nature? and if it is inherently fallible, isn't it entirely possible that it is wrong?

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

so if enough people believe in something then it must be true?

In this case most certainly, because of society. What truths do we hold self evident again? Does that make them completely true? As a society we have certainly worked to hold these 'something' true. However, many other societies do not. So, which truth is really true?

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by goliath

isn't it entirely possible that it is wrong?

let me answer for chris, yes it is entirely possible that it is wrong. but isnt it possible that some of it is right?

and around and around we go, full speed to zero conclusions.

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

so if the bible was written by men and for men, is it not fallible by nature? and if it is inherently fallible, isn't it entirely possible that it is wrong?

I'm not arguing that it cannot be wrong.

[NewbieChris]

I am not arguing its material, but its meaning to people. That is all. Somethings meaning is much more important than its contents. What if I told you that the thing that is most important to me in this world is a stuffed animal I was given at birth. I've had it at my side everyday, to this day. Yes, it sits in my dorm room. Its nothing though, really. Stuffing and some material. Its falling apart, but if I didn't have it anymore I would feel completely lost.

How do you react to that?

[goliath]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

I'm not arguing that it cannot be wrong.

well...we all make choices based on what makes sense to each of us. if reading the bible and praying make you feel whole somehow - then keep on keepin' on, man. enjoy it...

[goliath]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

I am not arguing its material, but its meaning to people. That is all. Somethings meaning is much more important than its contents. What if I told you that the thing that is most important to me in this world is a stuffed animal I was given at birth. I've had it at my side everyday, to this day. Yes, it sits in my dorm room. Its nothing though, really. Stuffing and some material. Its falling apart, but if I didn't have it anymore I would feel completely lost.

How do you react to that?

i'd hate to be responsible for bursting your bubble...which is why i usually just try to let this topic be...

[goliath]

however - i really do take issue with the evangelical movement. those people scare the crap out of me.

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

i'd hate to be responsible for bursting your bubble...which is why i usually just try to let this topic be...

Thats the point. Its irrational, right? It makes me comfortable though. I believe a belief in God is very similar. He doesn't have to be real for the time being, but he makes 90 some odd percent of the world comfortable. For that reason, he is real. His affects are real.

[rado]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

I don't. That is why it is called faith.

--
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Couldn't resist

[NewbieChris]

Originally Posted by goliath

however - i really do take issue with the evangelical movement. those people scare the crap out of me.

I agree. They are eventually going to take it to an extreme that I believe is very similar to that of radical Muslims.

[SonofBone]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

now the argument is starting to get less intelligent and is starting to go around in circles. this is the problem. these arguments never really end or come to a conclusion. the only thing we can do is worry about ourselves and what we believe in and not worry about what others believe.

excellent post. Look how much energy & debate (in a civil manner I might add) has went into this thread among board members. This makes it easier to see why countries have been going to war and trying to prove what they believe is right. You may win a war, but you can never force someone to believe in something they will not choose to believe. Too bad there is not a universally accepted religion, scientific fact, whatever you'd like to call it such as facts like we all know we're going to die.

[mindstar]

Bouncer: you could see the absence of an afterlife as depressing because you will never get to see loved ones again, or you can view it as motivation to make sure that you are the best person you can be to the people you love. You can make your best effort to let the people in your life know how you feel about them and to not let momentary events cause you to be cruel, mean or angry because you may not have a chance to appologise.

Chris, i thik that the notion of truth is a troubling one when it comes to morals. Math and science can have truth values which are absolute, and history can as well to some extent. Morals cannot, as they are merely an aggregate of knowledge aimed towards the best possible outcomes for humankind. Bible or no, there will always be grey areas and disputes of this kind. Irreligious people and religious people disagree as often with each other as they do with members of their own communities. What I find troubling is when people attempt to justify their moral beliefs with writings make be desert sheep herders 2000 years ago. Moral justification that relies on 'the word of god' has the effect of closing debate so that no real analysis can take place. Instead of actually debate the merits of a position religious believers instead end up debating the interprtations of a 2000 year old book, written by a different culture, with different technologies and different cosmological views.

I also think, that based on your writings, you probably have simmilar moral beliefs as most good people. Be nice to people, work for the greater good of society, etc.

I don't think you are a fundamentalist, and it doesn't seem like you are using the bible as a tool for justification as I outlined above but rather as a parable or set of examples. My problem is that the parable has enough bad examples in it to outweigh the good in my mind. And if religious people are picking and choosing what to follow and what to ignore, then the book is really not needed. If both shellfish and homosexuals are abhorrant to god (leviticus) how do we decide which he hates more? If we're going to make up our own mind on that, then what is the point on reading any of it?

[mindstar]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

I agree. They are eventually going to take it to an extreme that I believe is very similar to that of radical Muslims.

they are the same thing in my mind as are zionist israelis, and everyone else who uses religion as an excuse to kill.

The thing of it is, moderate religious people are the parents of the fundamentalists, both literally in some cases and metaphorically. They exist because moderates create the climate in which they can flourish.

One can argue that nationalism has some of the same atributes, but in the end, the idea of God, the all powerfull, as a justification can add a rightousness to the equasion that conflicts without this justification lack.

[goliath]

Originally Posted by NewbieChris

I agree. They are eventually going to take it to an extreme that I believe is very similar to that of radical Muslims.

have you seen Jesus Camp? that is a frightening film! the main camp lady actually says that she wants these kids to be ready to kill for jesus in response to the radical islamic movement. the thing that scares me is that people are electing fundamentalists to public office! the presidency even!