Distilled Water?

[Cory]

Does anyone have any opinions on drinking distilled water versus spring water? I heard drinking distilled water was better for you and caused less bloat.

[Cory]

Thanks Keiser!!

[Faye]

YOU SHOULD NEVER DRINK DISTILLED WATER!!!!! The reason for this is that all of the natural minerals have been removed from it. Thus, when it enters your body, it will leech minerals (ones you need) out of your body and you will piss them away. It can cause serious electrolite imbalances!

[bigpetefox]

Originally posted by Faye
YOU SHOULD NEVER DRINK DISTILLED WATER!!!!! The reason for this is that all of the natural minerals have been removed from it. Thus, when it enters your body, it will leech minerals (ones you need) out of your body and you will piss them away. It can cause serious electrolite imbalances!

Bump! I heard something about that, then my medic confirmed this..

[Cory]

Thanks guys!!

[ronmolina]

Faye is absolutely right. Dont drink distilled water for the reasons she mentioned. You also want water that is slightly alkaline. Distilled water is neutral.

[Faye]

My supermarket carries "drinking water", that is what I buy.

[skoowat]

WOW i never knew that - and i was getting ready to get a bunch of it. how about "purified" - is that as bad as distilled? cause right now that's all i drink. i don't trust ground water.

[Faye]

I'm not sure...but I think so...I'll look the next time I go to the store. Really, you should by DRINKING water.

[TrippersGirl]

yeah, distilled water is just water without any ions in it. Stick with spring water and you'll be better off.

[goliath]

Originally posted by TrippersGirl
yeah, distilled water is just water without any ions in it. Stick with spring water and you'll be better off.

it actually has plenty of ions in it...
it just has an equal number of hydrogen (H+) ions to Hydroxide (OH-) ions. H+ = OH- is neutral. more H+ will be acidic, more OH- will be alkaline. however, it does have all impurities and minerals removed. distilled water is used in those 'spot-free' rinses at the car wash. water spots on a car are just mineral deposits.

...a little bio lesson for the day.

[Faye]

Cool, thanks gollath!

[ronmolina]

Just some information for you folks about store bought water. For years I bought from my local grocer (Publix) water (spring water) in the plastic bottles 24 to a case. I was spending about $30 a week. I drink a lot of water. The local news paper here, did a story on bottled water comparing it to our local drinking water. They compared chemicals and contaminates (PCPs etc.) between the different waters and they found that the bottled water was no better and in some cases worse then our tap water. They also found that most of the bottled water was no more than city water from other places put in bottles. That caused me to investigate my own house water and other options more thoroughly. I contacted our local water authority and found out that the water besides having damaging amounts of chlorine had highly toxic PCPs from pesticides. They were with in the EPA's guidelines for toxicity. Our guidelines for what is safe in water for the contaminates is about double what most European countries allow. I don't want this shit in my water. so I investigated further and had my water tested. Most local water authorities will do this for you for free. The results were not good. I investigated water filters and found that they are really very good and not that expensive. They also produce results that eliminate contaminants completely or to levels way below what is in bottled water. I purchased one of these filters after investigating cost and effectiveness online for under $100. Best investment in water I ever made. They do not remove the natural minerals at least the one I bought. I purchased the aguasana 4000. After the purchase and installation I had my water tested again. Hardly anything after this test. Either it reduced all contaminates to not detectable or levels that were 99% less than before. They are easy to install. You just hook them up to any faucet. Mine came with several adapters for this purpose. I also found out the most expensive water filters are not the best ones. If it is a decent filter it will have passed California's stringent test. The aquasana does. A replacement filter cost about $45 online and at my water consumption will have to be replaced every 6 to 9 months. In other words I am spending less than $5 a month for better than bottled water which used to cost me about $120 a month. One other thing to consider. I believe I read this at pubmed. There was a recent test to determine what effects putting water and juices in plastic bottles. The results are that anything in a plastic container contains highly toxic and dangerous levels of toxins from plastic leaching. I will see if I cant dig up some stuff I have collected about water to share with you good folks when I have time later today.

[skoowat]

ronmolina i thank you from the bottom of my heart for that post. that was exactly the information i needed. i also do not trust US standards for consumable water which was why i was buying purified/distilled instead of spring or drinking water. but i had no idea it was actually bad for me in any way! and i've always wondered about the plastic. i will pursue the filter option. i am trying harder and harder to get away from plastic storage of any kind. i hope pyrex isn't bad for me, because i'm amassing quite a collection!

EDIT: actually i'm having trouble finding a link to this product. at least one that is in english could you post one or a relevant site?

[ronmolina]

I am looking for some references for you folks right now. You will be shocked at some of the information. Here is where I bought my filter. Also by the replacement filter with it for the reduced price you will save money later. Click also on their test link for the filter and look whats in most water including bottled water.

http://ww.puritec.com/residential/wa...p/aq4000ct.htm

[skoowat]

so what do you use to cart this stuff around with you?

ergo if i'm not gonna use plastic bottles for portability - any ideas? cause i gotta carry it around somehow.

[urso8up]

Originally posted by ronmolina
I am looking for some references for you folks right now. You will be shocked at some of the information. Here is where I bought my filter. Also by the replacement filter with it for the reduced price you will save money later. Click also on their test link for the filter and look whats in most water including bottled water.

http://ww.puritec.com/residential/wa...p/aq4000ct.htm

THanks for the info

[ronmolina]

Reuters Health

By Karla Gale

Monday, January 5, 2004


NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Chronic exposure to DEHP, a chemical commonly used to make plastic, increases sex hormone levels and induces small testosterone-secreting cells in the testes (Leydig cell hyperplasia) in young male rats, investigators have found.

They suggest in their report in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that chronic DEHP (di-(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate) exposure in childhood may adversely affect sexual development, systemic physiology and the risk of cancer.

Phthalates are used in the manufacture of toys, consumer products and medical devices, and "daily human exposure to DEHP in the U.S. is significant," Dr. Matthew P. Hardy and colleagues note in their article.

The US National Toxicology Program recently noted that DEHP may adversely affect reproductive organs. However, previous studies tended to examine short-term high-dose exposure rather than the more real-life situation of chronic low-level exposure.

Hardy and associates therefore exposed rats, beginning prior to puberty, to DEHP at 10 or 100 milligrams per kilogram per day for up to 120 days.

Although body weight and testes weight were not affected, blood levels of luteinizing hormone (LH) and testosterone were significantly elevated at day 90, indicating increased luteinizing hormone stimulation of Leydig cells in the animals.

In test tube experiments, luteinizing hormone-stimulated testosterone production by Leydig cells was somewhat reduced at the higher dose by day 120, while levels of the female hormone estradiol were elevated up to day 48, leveling off by day 90.

These findings thus represent a disturbance of the hormone system that affects reproductive development, Hardy told Reuters Health.

He also noted that while the number of Leydig cells increased with DEHP exposure, the scientists saw no malignant changes--although the possibility exists that testicular tumors could result over time. There is also concern that DEHP could lead to premature puberty, in girls as well as in boys.

"The plastics industry is actively looking at substitutes now," he said, and in Europe, manufacturers are voluntarily reducing their use of DEHP.

"Regulatory arms of the US government are quite aware of these data and other data that have recently come out," he commented, and he expects a "rapid recalibration of what safe exposure levels are."

SOURCE: The Proceeding of the National Academy of Science USA, January 5, 2004

[ronmolina]

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Bottled water may be all the rage with health-conscious consumers, but a new U.S. study released indicates it is not necessarily any healthier than most water taken directly from the tap.
The study, by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), looked at 103 brands of domestic and imported bottled water available in the United States. It found that in at least one sample, 33 percent of the tested brands exceeded bacterial-purity guidelines used by the industry, state-purity standards, or in some cases both.
"Just because water comes from a bottle doesn't mean it's any cleaner or safer than what comes from the tap," Erik Olson, NRDC's senior attorney and the report's lead author, said in a statement.
The NRDC said sales of bottled water have tripled in the last 10 years in the United States, in part due to advertising that hinted, sometimes misleadingly, that the water comes from pure sources such as springs.
"In fact, the study shows that between 25 and 40 percent of bottled waters are repackaged municipal tap water which may or may not have been subjected to additional treatment," the report said.
"People can drink what they want, but if they are going to spend up to 10,000 times more per gallon for bottled water as opposed to what comes from the tap, they have a right to know what's in the water, where it's from, and that it's absolutely pure," Olson said.
The International Bottled Water Association (IBWA), representing an industry that sells Americans an estimated 3.4 billion gallons (12.8 billion liters) of bottled water each year, dismissed the NRDC report as an attempt to "scare consumers." "For the past 37 years ... there have been no confirmed reports in the U.S. of illness or disease linked to bottled water," the IBWA said in a statement, noting that a raft of both internal and external safeguards exist aimed at guaranteeing product purity.

The NRDC study did find that most of the water tested was relatively free of contaminants and was of high quality, posing no threat to healthy people. But it also found that bacteria in a small amount of bottled water samples could prove a risk to people with weakened immune systems such as AIDS patients, the elderly, or people undergoing chemotherapy treatment.
The four-year study was conducted by three independent laboratories, using tests approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).
Using California's health-based limits for contamination, which are the strictest in the United States, the study found that 22 percent of tested brands violated those limits in at least one sample, most commonly by containing arsenic or synthetic organic compounds. Some 17 percent of the tested brands contained, in at least one sample, more bacteria than allowed under purity guidelines used by the industry, while 4 percent of tested brands violated federal contamination standards in at least one sample.

The NRDC, a national organization based in New York, found that safety rules governing bottled water are often less stringent than those in place for public tap water, allowing bottled brands to get by with small amounts of E. coli or fecal coliform contamination, and to be sold to the public untested for parasites such as Cryptosporidium.
"Surprisingly, bottled water is essentially regulated on the honor system in most states," Olson said, noting that there were no testing requirements, no requirements for notification when standards are violated, and no requirement for public disclosure of known contaminants.
The NRDC recommended that the FDA set strict limits for contaminants in bottled water, and that these limits be applied to all bottled water distributed in the United States, both carbonated and noncarbonated.
It also called on the government to place new emphasis on cleaning and guaranteeing the nation's tap-water supply, noting that much of the appeal of bottled water stems from public concern over the safety of traditional drinking water supplies.

"The long-term solution to our water woes is to fix our tap water so it is safe for everyone, and tastes and smells good," the report concluded.

[ronmolina]

"Plastic has been in use for many years, but it has not been publicly known that all plastics containers leach high levels of toxic contaminates into the water and other substances that they come into contact with.
The worst of these is PVC [poly vinyl chloride]. Currently many bottled water companies use cheap PVC plastic to store and transport the water in.

There are an assortment of undesirable chemicals leached from most plastics, here we will only briefly look at one such chemical. It is by no means the only one, it should be enough to give you an idea of the dangers.
Bisphenol A
[some recent important studies of bisphenol A]
"...aneuploidy in humans causes spontaneous miscarriages and some 10-20% of all birth defects, including Down Syndrome, this implicates bisphenol A in a broad range of human developmental errors..."Scientific studies have also indicated that it causes or may be linked to...proliferation of prostate cancer & other prostate problems...human obesity epidemic...breast cancer...speeds the pace of sexual development. "Bisphenol A is one of the most commonly used plastic materials in food containers, in beverage containers. This is a ubiquitous chemical ... at least in the developed world. It is one of the top 50 chemicals in production."

Bisphenol A was invented in the 1930's during the search for synthetic estrogens. The first evidence of its estrogenicity came from experiments in the 1930's feeding BPA to ovariectomised rats (Dodds and Lawson 1936, 1938).

Another compound first synthesized during that era, diethylstilbestrol, turned out to be more powerful as an estrogen, so bisphenol A was shelved... until polymer chemists discovered that it could be polymerized to form polycarbonate plastic.

Bisphenol A is now deeply imbedded in the products of modern consumer society, not just as the building block for polycarbonate plastic (from which it then leaches as the plastic ages) but also in the manufacture of epoxy resins and other plastics, including polysulfone, alkylphenolic, polyalylate, polyester-styrene, and certain polyester resins.
Its uses don't end with the making of plastic. Bisphenol A has been used as an inert ingredient in pesticides (although in the US this has apparently been halted), as a fungicide, antioxidant, flame retardant, rubber chemical, and polyvinyl chloride stabilizer.

These uses create a myriad of exposures for people. Bisphenol A-based polycarbonate is used as a plastic coating for children's teeth to prevent cavities, as a coating in metal cans to prevent the metal from contact with food contents, as the plastic in food containers, refrigerator shelving, baby bottles, returnable containers for juice, milk and water, micro-wave ovenware and eating utensils.

Other exposures result from BPA's use in "films, sheets, and laminations; reinforced pipes; floorings; water main filters; enamels and varnishes; adhesives; artificial teeth; nail polish; compact discs; electric insulators; and as parts of automobiles, certain machines, tools, electrical appliances, and office automation instruments" (Takahashi and Oishi 2000).

BPA contamination is also widespread in the environment. For example, BPA can be measured in rivers and estuaries at concentrations that range from under 5 to over 1900 nanograms/liter. Sediment loading can also be significant, with levels ranging from under 5 to over 100 g/kg (ppb) BPA is quite persistent as under normal conditions in the environment it does not readily degrade (Rippen 1999).

What this all means is that most of your life you are within arm's length or closer to bisphenol A. No wonder the debate over its toxicity is so intense.
Some very important recent scientific studies of Bisphenol A:
An accident in the lab, followed by careful analysis and a series of experiments, reveals that bisphenol A causes aneuploidy in mice at low levels of exposure. Because aneuploidy in humans causes spontaneous miscarriages and some 10-20% of all birth defects, including Down Syndrome, this implicates bisphenol A in a broad range of human developmental errors. Hunt, PA, KE Koehler, M Susiarjo, CA Hodges, A Ilagan, RC Voigt, S Thomas, BF Thomas and TJ Hassold. 2003. Bisphenol A exposure causes meiotic aneuploidy in the female mouse. Current Biology 13: 546-553.

Experiments by researchers at the University of Missouri raise the possibility of widespread contamination of laboratory experiments by bisphenol A. Their results demonstrate that at room temperature significant amounts of this estrogenic substance leach into water from old polycarbonate animal cages. This inadvertent contamination could interfere with experiments designed to test the safety of estrogenic chemicals, and lead to false negatives and conflicting results. Howdeshell, KA, PH Peterman, BM Judy, JA Taylor, CE Orazio, RL Ruhlen, FS vom Saal, and WV Welshons 2003. Bisphenol A is released from used polycarbonate animal cages into water at room temperature. Environmental Health Perspectives doi:10.1289/ehp.5993.

An analysis of the biochemical mechanisms of endocrine disruption suggests why industry has been unable to replicate crucial low-dose impacts of bisphenol A on prostate development. Howdeshell, KA, PH Peterman, BM Judy, JA Taylor, CE Orazio, RL Ruhlen, FS vom Saal, and WV Welshons 2003. Welshons, WV, KA Thayer, BM Judy, JA Taylor, EM Curran and FS vom Saal. 2003. Large effects from small exposures. I. Mechanisms for endocrine disrupting chemicals with estrogenic activity. Environmental Health Perspectives doi:10.1289/ehp.5494

Using new analytical methods, a team of German scientists measured bisphenol A in the blood of pregnant women, in umbilical blood at birth and in placental tissue. All samples examined contained BPA, at levels within the range shown to alter development. Thus widespread exposure to BPA at levels of concern is no longer a hypothetical issue. It is occurring. Schönfelder, G, W Wittfoht, H Hopp, CE Talsness, M Paul and I Chahoud. 2002. Parent Bisphenol A Accumulation in the Human Maternal-Fetal-Placental Unit. Environmental Health Perspectives 110:A703-A707.

At extremely low levels, BPA promotes fat cell (adipocyte) differentiation and accumulation of lipids in a cell culture line used as a model for adipocyte formation. These two steps, differentiation and accumulation, are crucial in the development of human obesity. Hence this result opens up a whole new chapter in efforts to understand the origins of the world-wide obesity epidemic. Masuno, H, T Kidani, K Sekiya, K Sakayama, T Shiosaka, H Yamamoto and K Honda. 2002. Bisphenol A in combination with insulin can accelerate the conversion of 3T3-L1 fibroblasts to adipocytes. Journal of Lipid Research 3:676-684.

In cell culture experiments, BPA at very low (nanomolar levels) stimulates androgen-independent proliferation of prostate cancer cells. This finding is especially important because when prostate tumors become androgen-independent they no longer respond to one of the key therapies for prostate cancer. Wetherill, YB, CE Petre, KR Monk, A Puga, and KE Knudsen. 2002. The Xenoestrogen Bisphenol A Induces Inappropriate Androgen Receptor Activation and Mitogenesis in Prostatic adenocarcinoma Cells. Molecular Cancer Therapeutics 1: 515 524.

BPA causes changes in rat ventral prostate cells that appear similar to events that make nascent prostate tumors in humans more potent: Ramos, JG, J Varayoud, C Sonnenschein, AM Soto, M Muñoz de Toro and EH Luque. 2001. Prenatal Exposure to Low Doses of Bisphenol A Alters the Periductal Stroma and Glandular Cell Function in the Rat Ventral Prostate. Biology of Reproduction 65: 1271 1277.

BPA induces changes in mouse mammary tissue that resemble early stages mouse and human of breast cancer: Markey, CM, EH Luque, M Muñoz de Toro, C Sonnenschein and AM Soto. 2001. In Utero Exposure to Bisphenol A Alters the Development and Tissue Organization of the Mouse Mammary Gland. Biology of Reproduction 65: 1215 1223.

BPA at extremely low levels creates superfemale snails. Oehlmann, J, U Schulte-Oehlmann, M Tillmann and B Markert. 2000. Effects of endocrine disruptors on Prosobranch snails (Mollusca: Gastropoda) in the laboratory. Part I: Bisphenol A and Octylphenol as xenoestrogens. Ecotoxicology 9:383-397.

BPA is rapidly transfered to the fetus after maternal uptake: Takahashi, O and S Oishi. 2000. Disposition of Orally Administered 2,2-Bis(4-hydroxyphenyl) propane (Bisphenol A) in Pregnant Rats and the Placental Transfer to Fetuses. Environmental Health Perspectives
108:931-935.

An independently funded, academic laboratory can verify controversial BPA results, even though industry can't: Gupta, Chhanda. 2000. Reproductive malformation of the male offspring following maternal exposure to estrogenic chemicals. Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine 224:61-68.

Metabolic differences between rats and humans probably mean that humans are more sensitive to BPA than are rats: Elsby, R, JL Maggs, J Ashby and BK Park. 2001. Comparison of the modulatory effects of human and rat liver microsomal metabolism on the estrogenicity of bisphenol A: implications for extrapolation to humans. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics 297-103-113.

A confirmation of BPA low dose effects, and demonstration that the effects include impacts on estrous cyclicity and plasma LH levels: Rubin, BS, MK Murray, DA Damassa, JC King and AM Soto. 2001. Perinatal Exposure to Low Doses of Bisphenol A Affects Body Weight, Patterns of Estrous Cyclicity, and Plasma LH Levels. Environmental Health Perspectives 109: 675-680.

BPA speeds the pace of sexual development in mice, and causes mice to be obese: Howdeshell, K, AK Hotchkiss, KA Thayer, JG Vandenbergh and FS vom Saal. 1999. Plastic bisphenol A speeds growth and puberty. Nature 401: 762-764.
Study Links Common Plastic to Birth Defects.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A common ingredient used to make plastics such as baby bottles causes birth defects in mice -- defects that could also occur in people, U.S. researchers said on Monday.

They urged more research into the potential effects of bisphenol A, a chemical long criticized by environmentalists as being a hormone disruptor that could cause defects in embryos.

The defects they found, when they occur in humans, can cause miscarriages or mental retardation such as Down Syndrome -- and they seem to be caused at what were considered to be low levels of exposure, the researchers report in the journal Current Biology.

The discovery came by accident, Patricia Hunt and colleagues at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio report.

Her team first noted a higher than normal increase in abnormalities in developing egg cells in female mice.

"We were looking at the processes as cells start to undergo division," Hunt, a geneticist, said in a telephone interview.

"The chromosomes are supposed to line up in an orderly fashion so they can divide in an orderly fashion. What we saw was a tremendous increase in the number of cells in which the alignment of chromosomes in the cells were not orderly at all -- they were very disorderly."

In the mice they were studying this only usually happens 2 percent of the time, but Hunt's team said 40 percent of the eggs were developing these problems.

They spent weeks looking for the cause.

"Nothing turned up. But ... I noticed that the plastic cages looked kind of the worst for wear," Hunt said.

It turned out that a harsh detergent used to clean the cages had broken down the plastic, releasing bisphenol A. Do any of you wash your plastic cups, plates, dishes et cetera? If you do, then you are getting plenty of bisphenol A in your diet.

Hunt's team deliberately exposed mice to small amounts of bisphenol A for short periods of time and found the abnormalities increased again.

CHEMICALS THAT DISRUPT HORMONES

Many labs are studying the effects of bisphenol A and other chemicals that act as endocrine disruptors -- affecting the actions of hormones in the body. Some scientists fear that developing fetuses and young children are especially vulnerable to these effects.

"Pat Hunt hasn't shown damage in fetuses yet, but it has to be a subject of concern," said Fred vom Saal, an expert on the effects of toxins on reproduction at the University of Missouri.

"Bisphenol A is one of the most commonly used plastic materials in food containers, in beverage containers. This is a ubiquitous chemical ... at least in the developed world. It is one of the top 50 chemicals in production."

Hunt, who studies the effects of aging on egg cells and fertility, said she was not even looking for chemical influences. "That's one of the things I think makes our study unusual," she said.

While the study says nothing about the effects of bisphenol A in humans, Hunt said there is reason to believe they would be similar. The changes in the mice cause aneuploidy -- a misalignment of the chromosomes that is seen in human birth defects and miscarriages.

"You don't wait to prove that it does that in people before you take some regulatory action," Vom Saal said, adding that he hopes Congress may now agree to fund more studies on the effects of bisphenol A.

"We are talking about these mice essentially drinking out of old baby bottles," Vom Saal said -- noting that hard plastic containers like bottles start leaching bisphenol A when they begin to look cracked or etched. He urged the chemical industry to make more plastic products that do not contain bisphenol A."

[goliath]

great info there rummolina!

[Sootybaby]

Eek. Distilled water has no electrolytes and as such not a great source of H2O input also does not taste of owt. By the way Coke tried to sell purified water in UK recently and failed big time. I read the label and it said Aqua + ingredients. The buggers were using a reverse osmosis tecnique to purify our tap water (already ok by EU standards) then selling it back to us at inflated prices. The ingredients on the label were required to get it to taste "nomal" funny thing is that they had to recall the whole lot 'cos the purifation process increased the bromate (carcinogen) levels to above EU(european union) standards. Its called Dasani over here. Stick to tap water ( even straight rain water has lower levels of minerals than recommended). Try natural diuretics to lose some excess water.