Mini cut or mini bulk before Havoc cylce??

[The_Grinder]

I am wanting to start my first Havoc cycle in about a month. Right now I am at a very neutral weight for me. I got to about 189 on my cut, and I have put on about 6 pounds, clean bulk style. Still cutting carbs completely out after 18:00 or so.

So over the next month or so, should I trim up a little bit, or try and put on a little more size and strength naturally??

My thoughts are, if I cut a little bit, I can shock my body with high calories and the Havoc. But, if I bulk a little bit, I can build some strength and size before my cycle, and be stronger starting out. (which is always good)

This is my first PH cycle so I would appreciate any help. Here's my planned cycle by the way, feel free to comment... (By the way, I will be using a completely OTC PCT consisting of Anobolic Innovation's Post Cycle Support and IForce's Reversitol.)

10 days prior: 2 scoops of cycle support daily

On Cylce: (2 scoops of CS every day)
Week 1: 10-20 mgs daily (10 mg first 4 days, 20 mg last 3 days)
Week 2: 30 mgs
Week 3: 30 mgs
Week 4: 30 mgs

PCT: (2 scoops daily of whatever I have left of CS)
Week 1: 3 tabs Reversitol daily
Week 2: 2 tabs Reversitol daily
Week 3: 2 tabs Reversitol daily, 4 caps PCS
Week 4: 1 tab Reversitol daily, 4 caps PCS
Week 5: 4 caps PCS
Week 6: 4 caps PCS

iFORCE REVERSITOL

Cycle Support - POST Cycle Support

[THE BOUNCER]

it depends on what you look like now and how happy you are with your cut. from what i remember, your not very cut but not very big either. if i were you, i would go all out and get shredded. get very lean and then SLOWLY bulk. most people make the mistake of bulking fast and just putting on a bunch of fat.

[The_Grinder]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

it depends on what you look like now and how happy you are with your cut. from what i remember, your not very cut but not very big either. if i were you, i would go all out and get shredded. get very lean and then SLOWLY bulk. most people make the mistake of bulking fast and just putting on a bunch of fat.

Well, at 22, never been on anything stronger than creatine, with less than optimal genetics, i wanted to get a jumpstart and add some lean mass. My cut kind of stalled out at 189, and i just didnt feel like I was going to lose much more fat without digging into the muscle at the rate I was going. I actually got down to about 10% BF or so a month after those pictures. (Just didnt take any more pictures because I got hairy again and lost my tan) I just think if I get "shredded" ill be fucking 175 lbs or some shit.

Whether I bulk or cut some from where I'm at, my basic question is this. "Before going on cycle is it a good idea to start from a very cut state or after you have put on a little size after a cut?"

[THE BOUNCER]

i still say do one or the other. cut and do it right or bulk and do it right. so what if you lose a bit of muscle. you can gain it back slowly once you are shredded. dont get into the habit like so many average gym rats do of going back and forth. they cut for a bit then bulk then cut etc.. i call the flip floppers. meanwhile they look the same for 10 years because they never dedicate themselves to a goal.

[3v1lj03]

I think you should stay away from the Pro hormones. What happened to the Grinder who said "I look forward to all the time I have for natural muscle building" I paraphrase But I am sure I can find that and many similar quotes from you. I think you should reevaluate your goals, nutrition plan and your workout to meet those goals and yes even supplementation but not Pro hormones. At 22 you have not even hit your peak for muscle building yet. I would not even consider any kind of hormones until you are at least 25. I bet with the right plan and dedication you could easily put on 20 lbs of muscle naturally in the next year. I agree with B cut or bulk but do it right and I would add without pro hormones. They are not all that great anyway.

[The_Grinder]

Ok well I'm going to continue my cut for a little bit. I got up early this morning and did sprints and the local high school track. I'll spend today revamping my diet. (Even though it is already very clean.) After I cut for however long it takes, I will re-evaluate the PH thing.

[THE BOUNCER]

good idea. i never thought very much of you trying the pro hormones anyway.

[The_Grinder]

Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER

good idea. i never thought very much of you trying the pro hormones anyway.

Well, as far as prohormones go, Havoc is pretty good stuff. Read dozens of great reviews. Great results and very few sides.

But like I said, I'll re-evaluate it after a few months. Maybe when I'm ready to go that route, I'll just go ahead and go with Test.

[THE BOUNCER]

i just think you can do a lot before you go that route.

[NYCmitch25]

I agree with these guys. i would take a hard look at your diet, training, and dedication.

Where did you get that stack from?

[The_Grinder]

Originally Posted by NYCmitch25

I agree with these guys. i would take a hard look at your diet, training, and dedication.

Where did you get that stack from?

Researched a lot. Read hundreds of reviews and logs. Actually talked to some company reps too about specific products. Didnt actually order anything yet.

As far as my diet, training, and dedication... I'm far from half-assing it. Been very serious and dedicated for the last 2 years. But I admit, I would be lying if I said all that was perfect. I am however, skeptical as to how far I can go with genetics alone. Was never the most athletic kid and the men in my family arent exactly beasts.

I will however still natural for a bit longer, but I am also a realist. I will eventually, (and safely), take the next step.

[YellowJacket]

Havoc = not a pro hormone.

[The_Grinder]

Originally Posted by YellowJacket

Havoc = not a pro hormone.

what do u consider it??

[YellowJacket]

Originally Posted by The_Grinder

what do u consider it??

Designer steroid.

[3v1lj03]

Originally Posted by The_Grinder

Researched a lot. Read hundreds of reviews and logs. Actually talked to some company reps too about specific products. Didnt actually order anything yet.

As far as my diet, training, and dedication... I'm far from half-assing it. Been very serious and dedicated for the last 2 years. But I admit, I would be lying if I said all that was perfect. I am however, skeptical as to how far I can go with genetics alone. Was never the most athletic kid and the men in my family arent exactly beasts.

I will however still natural for a bit longer, but I am also a realist. I will eventually, (and safely), take the next step.

The only sport I ever played was pee wee football and I was not good at it. I started weight training when I was 13 yrs old when I was a sophomore I read Arnold's book I was 5'6" weighed 150 lbs. I got some small understanding of nutrition and a different philosophy of BBing I graduated at 168 lbs at 5'7" and there was no fat. I wanted to weigh 172 lbs so bad I could taste it but I just could not make it happen all through my early 20s when I hit 25 my body finally started to respond to the training and the high protein I easily hit 185 lbs and it was much easier to build muscle and the strength was incredible people used to stop what they were doing to watch me move huge weight. I am not telling you this to toot my horn but to give you hope. There is no overnight success in BBing it takes years NO drug or supplement will put that time in for you. I have this quote from Jeff Willit on my desk and it helps me in those times when I don't think I am progressing:
"if you persevere and keep stringing great weeks of execution together, Who knows, in a few years you may be the next overnight success. "

BTW I have tried Havoc and Epstine (not sure spelling on that one) and they ain't all that.

[dynamite18]

Has anyone heard if d-drol (by 4-ever fit) and winadrol by (cdt labs) is a good stack? If not what is?

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by dynamite18

Has anyone heard if d-drol (by 4-ever fit) and winadrol by (cdt labs) is a good stack? If not what is?

generally speaking, any company that makes a supplement sound like the name of a steroid is garbage.

[dynamite18]

The only reason I ask is because a guy from my gym stacked it and gained 20lbs. and after he got off he kept about 10lbs. I just wanted to see if anyone wlse out there heard of this stack.

[THE BOUNCER]

Originally Posted by dynamite18

The only reason I ask is because a guy from my gym stacked it and gained 20lbs. and after he got off he kept about 10lbs. I just wanted to see if anyone wlse out there heard of this stack.

did he gain 20lbs from the supplement or did he start training and eating better and gain 20lbs that way?

[dynamite18]

Well before he started taking it he was always in the gym working out hard, and he eats good too.

[NYCmitch25]

how'd it go?