Looking to lose body fat, add muscle...

[ecmoney]

Hey Everyone,
Ok here is my story. Growing up I was a skinny kid until I hit about 16 years old, then I gained a bit of fat and have always been a bit on the pudgy side but not big. I am now 27 and finally began to do something about it. I started working out a few weeks ago and do 30 minutes of cardio 5 days a week and work out with weights (home gym) every other day. I hit all the major body parts (Chest/Triceps, Biceps/Back, Shoulders/Legs, Abs). I want to get into shape, I don't want to be a body builder but I do want to get into the best shape that I can and look good. I have attached a few pictures of what I look like currently with my shirt off, yes I am a bit fat but what can I say I have not done anything about it for years. I finally want to change and you guys/girls at this website will help me along the way and build the better body that I always wanted. Questions I have to ask you all is diet, supplements, and training. First off, my diet was horrible but I after reading alot from this website I have learned a few things. I have been cutting out the carbs, I dont eat as much bread/pasta/rice. I do not eat late at night either before going to bed. I usually drink a slimfast shake for a lunch or dinner about two/three times a week as a meal replacement. I am currently not taking any supplements but would like to take a fat burner if you guys think it is worth while. I am eating heathier lately, salads and healthy foods. Trying to eat more protein and less carbs. As for supplements, is it worth it to take a fat burner. I want to lose body fat and also gain muscle. That is my goal.
Take a look at my pics, my current stats are 5'9" (or 5'10") and about 185lbs. I currently wear a size 36" pants. I want to bring that down to a size 32" if I can and the weight I dont mind. I dont even care if I get up to 200lbs, just as long as I look better and feel better. I know adding muscle will add weight. Any help would be much appreciated. The cardio I currently do is 30 minutes on the treadmill or 30 minutes on an exercise bike (recumbent exercise bike). Should I increase the cardio times to 40 minutes? I usually burn about 200 calories on the treadmill in 30 minutes (thats what my treadmill reads on the display). Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry for the long post!

[decadecadeca]

Congrats on getting on track.

Study up on your nutrition and training routines, read here and check out some general fitness and nutriton books. I say skip the supplements for now, you don't need them at this point.

-Eat 6 small meals a day
-Keep them balanced, but slighty higher in protein
-Take in small amounts of good fats like nuts, olives, flax oil
-Drink at least a gallon of water throughout the day
-Set goals in small increments, don't cheat at all until you at least reach your first goal
-Lift at least three days a week, start slow and learn good form
-Cardio sessions of at least 30 mins three times a week
-8 hours sleep a nite


It's a simple matter of dedication and resolve, if you want this badly enough you'll stick to it. Tough it out, train religiously and eat cleanly. Do not falter, do not cheat, do not give into cravings. Push yourself, be consistent and you will see results.

Start here:
Basal Metabolic Rate for Gaining/Losing Weight

Read this thread and use it. Start a daily nutrition log and keep track of what you're eating. Log calories, fat, protein and carbs. You'll see where you need to make adjustments.



Good Luck!

[Juka865]

cant do it any better / simpler then that. That's basically what I did. Only i did cardio 5-6 days a week with 1 hour sessions. Mainly cause i had time to kill and after awhile i got to like it. Loosing a 100 pounds i gurantee if you do what deca says both the diet and excercise you will loose greatly. And tighten as you loose. See i didnt hit the gym up untill after i was comming off of my diet. which was a poor choice

[ecmoney]

Thanks Guys,
I have been following the basics and will continue to.

I am trying to eat small meals, 4 or 5 times a day. I drink alot of water throughout the day, and do work out with weights 3 times a week (basically every other day). I also do cardio for 30 minutes a day 5 times a week atleast.

So you think I should skip the supplements?
I was thinking about taking a fat burner or I was thinking about taking Creatine. Do you not suggest either for me?
I want to add muscle (hence the creatine) but I also want to lose fat (hence fat burner).

[Taylor]

if your choosing between a fat burner and creatine, i'd go with a fat burner....I was taking fat ignite while i was trying to lose weight, its one of the best buys....You get 180 capsules for $40 at gnc...prior to that I forgot which fat burner i took but it had ephedra in it, and it was a more popular name, but it had like 60 pills for the same price

creatine, i took when i was in the 9th grade, and it made me gain weight, cause i didn't do any cardio, i just occasionally lifted weights (i was in the 9th grade i didn't know anything)...I assumed I'd take it and look like hulk hogan in a few weeks, lol.....it may help you get bigger but you will need to work out religiously and make sure you eat right, I'd definetly recommend the fat ignite pills first tho

[ecmoney]

what if I took a fat burner and creatine at the same time, is that ok or will that be completely useless and cancel eachother out?

[Taleigh21]

How about NO SUPPLEMENTS? You need to get on a basic eating program and workout schedule first, before you start thinking about supplements. If you dont stay on track with eating and working out no amount of supps. will help you, Deca's advice was bang on.

When I bounded into the gym and decided to get fit, I purchased a copy of Bill Phillips book --BODY FOR LIFE. I know that some people may think its corny or whatver, but it outlined a solid eating and workout program that has helped lots of people.

In my opinion, skip the supplements for now.

[YellowJacket]

Taleigh- I was 100% with you until the Body For Life recommendation


If one were to get a book on nutrition, it doesnt get any better than Lyle McDonald's Ulitmate Diet 2.0.

Deca said it well (except he forgot to tell you to avoid nuts with a coating, its all carbs ) but get your diet down 1st and foremost, we'd be happy to help you with that.
Once you've done that, get your training and cardio down. Waht does your cardio routine look like? There are certain methods that burn more calories than others.......

As for choosing a supplement (creatine vs. fat burner), the dog who chases two rabbits catches nothing. This meaning, you must prioritize.
1. Nutrition
2. Weight training cardio
3. Supplementation

#3 is 100% useless without #1 & #2. If you choose a fat burner, I wouldnt get realy fancy with it. I would almost go with simply green tea and caffeine and a good diet. Not a lot of stimulants, so your CNS is stressed as youre trying to get dieting down.

Finally, dont concentrate on soley losing fat even if you cant take creatine right away. Any muscle you add helps. Muscle burns much more calories (fat stores) than anything else. So not only bust your ass on the cardio aspect, but bust your ass in the weight room as well......

YJ

[Stonecold54]

Originally posted by YellowJacket
the dog who chases two rabbits catches nothing. YJ

what if both the rabbits are running in the same direction??

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by stonecold54
what if both the rabbits are running in the same direction??

Good question.....I would assume the dog would catch one and not have room in his mouth for the other maybe?? haha....

[Taleigh21]

Yellow..

It was just the first thing that I ever read that gave me inspiration and motivation to get my ass into the gym! It is an eating plan if you have no plan, and same goes for the workout part. It really helped me on my way, but of course, I have learned more and BFL is not a part of my regime anymore.

However, I have taken HIIT principals introduced in BFL and worked with those throughout cardio all the time. I just liked the no-nonsense approach and the inspiration the book gave a dummy like myself. It was a step in the right direction.

Just my two cents.

[YellowJacket]

Fair enough....

[ecmoney]

Hey Guys,
Ok I have decided to skip the supplements for now and just concentrate on the cardio and weight training until I feel more comfortable. I do want to eventually take some supplements to increase my results but I will wait another month or so.

In the meantime, help me out with some foods that I can snack on. Name me a few things that are good for me to eat so I can create a list and stick to those items when shopping for food.

This is what I have so far:

whole wheat bread
almonds
fruits
vegetables
nuts (assorted)
tuna
eggs
turkey

what else can I eat that is healthy for me for lunch, dinner, and snacks? Thanks again everyone!

[Juka865]

Knock out the fruits.... You dont need all that sugar. Turkey should be bought and cooked by yourself. No cold cuts too much sodium. Try low carb whole wheat bread that's nice. Eggs id use the egg whites in your case, you still get the protein but not the fat =) Hmmm what else uhhhh, Brown rice is awesome. Not white just the brown it has great nutrients in it. chicken chicken chicken. Skinless boiled or grilled, pan fryed/ steamed. Peanut butter has good fats in it. A bannana a day wont hurt you either. its nice for carbs and is a quick meal on the go... That's all i got for now later.

[Sev408]

hey man, im about 5'7 5'8 and i just started lifting about 2 weeks ago. i also weigh 180lbs.









Guys if you can recommend any thing to build up my pecs. Im declining/benching/inclining everytime I go to the gym. Anything else I should do?

[Puddles]

Originally posted by Sev408
Guys if you can recommend any thing to build up my pecs. Im declining/benching/inclining everytime I go to the gym. Anything else I should do?

Do some more reading here. You shouldn't be training the same bodypart every time you're in the gym. Most people train each bodypart once a week. Your muscles need time to recover in order to grow.

Try doing a search here for "split" so you can see how the guys train. A split is an outline of what days a person trains and what bodyparts they are hitting and what exercises they may be doing each day.

Welcome to the board...you can learn a lot and make some great progress here.


I did a search for split in the training forum and found this thread...it'll give you some insight...

Please critique my workout

[gdbear65]

I didn't start supplementing until 3 months after I started working out and eating better. Deca is right - forget about supplements for now. But when you're ready - try this muscle building stack - Take a zinc supplement (supports testosterone production) 30 to 60 minutes before bedtime (I use Ultimate Nutrition's ZMA). In the morning take 750mg of Bulgarian Tribulus (boosts testosterone production) and another 750mg of Tribulus in the late afternoon. Finally, use a high-quality protein, containing growth factors and an NOS (nitric oxide) complex after your workouts and up to 4 times/day. I don't know your age, but if you're middle aged (over 35) you also need to supplement with 320mg of Saw Palmetto extract, which will protect your prostate from phyto(bad)-testosterone.

[YellowJacket]

That may have been the worst supplelment recommendation Ive ever seen.....

[gdbear65]

What's so terrible about it? It's safe; it works and there's no side effects.

And while I'm at it - if you're going to be critical of other people's posts, you should give some reasoning as to why you disagree, otherwise you're adding nothing to the discussion!

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by gdbear65
What's so terrible about it? It's safe; it works and there's no side effects.

And while I'm at it - if you're going to be critical of other people's posts, you should give some reasoning as to why you disagree, otherwise you're adding nothing to the discussion!

Youre right, where's my manners, I rarely add anything to the discussion.....
1. There's no valid studies showing Tribulus is of any benefit to raising endogenous testosterone levels, good luck finding one.

2. ZMA is highly overrated, if anything, settle for the zinc, which does little for naturally raising testosterone

3. NO products are determental to health and muscle gains, so do some research before you call something "safe"...

Might as well go for regular ol creatine....

The effectiveness of A-AKG in increasing NO
I did some research on this as well. AKG is metabolized into glutamate, which is then metabolized into L-glutamine (2). But this does not mean that it is nothing more than L-glutamine, remember that glutamate is the intermediary step.

Coincidentally... while researching fibromyaglia, I found that many cases of FM can be cured by eliminating MSG from the diet. MSG metabolizes to glutamate, which is an "excitotoxin," meaning it activates the NMDA receptors to the point of neural damage. And guess what... that leads to excessive nitric oxide levels (1). In other words, AKG does not work synergistically with arginine per se. It operates via a seperate mechanism to increase NO levels, and a potentially dangerous one. Ornithine-AKG has the same effect (2). I couldn't find any human studies regarding the safety of AKG, but I did find in many places (none of them "legitimate" though) that no such studies exist.

In light of this, I have developed a theory. The theory is that in NO2 and related products, the AKG is the important part and the arginine is just there for show (as opposed to what many people who criticize the products think, which is that the AKG is the useless part). I have been trying to find evidence to support this by finding references that say dietary arginine does not raise NO levels. What I've found so far:

-Every time NO levels go up, there is an increase in arginine disposal, which would imply that the body only uses what it needs based on other controlling mechanisms (such as the NMDA part of the brain) (3).
-Two analogues of arginine, ADMA and L-NMMA, are formed when there are excess amounts of arginine in cells. Both of these analogues inhibit the synthesis of more nitric oxide. In other words, whenever the body has enough arginine, it sends a message to slow production of nitric oxide.
-The only studies I found showing that administration of arginine increased NO levels was in cases of deficiency.

If anybody has more references on this, please let me know.

David

1. Smith J. D., Terpening C. M., Schmidt S. O. F., Gums J. G. Relief of fibromyalgia symptoms following discontinuation of dietary excitotoxins. Ann Pharmacotherapy 2001;35:702-706.
2. Le Boucher J et al., Enteral administration of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate or arginine alpha-ketoglutarate: a comparative study of their effects on glutamine pools in burn-injured rats, Crit Care Med 1997 Feb;25(2):293-8
3. Bruins MJ, Lamers WH, Meijer AJ, Soeters PB, Deutz NE. In vivo measurement of nitric oxide production in porcine gut, liver and muscle during hyperdynamic endotoxaemia. Br J Pharmacol 2002 Dec;137(8):1225-36


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NO2 Exposed - Part 2


There are now quite a few supplements out there that claim to increase nitric oxide levels in the body. Examples include NO2, Nitro AKG, and NOX2. For the moment, I'm going to assume that these substances increase nitric oxide levels above the normal levels found in an otherwise healthy individual. What would this do?

The main functions of NO in various systems are listed here:

Immune system: Macrophages produce NO to kill target cells because it is cytotoxic. It disrupts the Kreb's cycle, DNA synthesis, and mitochondrial function, making it a very effective cell killer.

Nervous system: Acts as a neurotransmitter and regulates apoptosis (cell death) in neurons. NO is also correlated with the excitation of NMDA receptors.

Circulatory system: NO stimulates the production of pro-inflammatory compounds (specifically, eiconosoids), and other pro-inflammatory compounds are known to stimulate the production of NO. NO is also a vasiodilator.

I could find no evidence or reasons to believe than NO will cause gains in strength. If anybody has any, please let me know. The "pump" effect that many report could be due to vasiodilation (assuming the supplement increases NO levels).

Of prime importance here is the function of NO in the immune and nervous systems. I'll try to dumb this down as much as I can. O2-, or super-oxide, is the most prevalent oxidant in the body. That means: it's bad for you. Luckily, it is not very stable. ONOO- (peroxynitrite) is another oxidant, but is much more stable. So while super-oxide can do damage, peroxynitrite can do much more. On top of that, it can pass freely through cell membranes. When super-oxide reacts with NO, it forms peroxynitrate.

In the immune system, macrophages kill target bacteria and tumor cells through a targetted release of NO, which reacts with super-oxide to form peroxynitrite. This peroxynitrite then kills the targetted bacterium or cancer cell. So basically your immune system's defense is: poison the target cell.

This point should not be taken lightly. The more NO there is in your bloodstream, the more NO reacts with super-oxide to form peroxynitrite. But in this case, it's not a controlled response like immune response or apoptosis in neurons.

Now here's what makes the situation even worse. Under normal circumstances, the amount of NO in your system is closely mediated. There are three types of NOS (nitric oxide synthase, which produces NO in the body), and each responds to different things (such as the amount of calcium in cells). But like I said, let's assume that you can increase NO levels above normal. As described above, this causes peroxynitrite levels to go up. But peroxynitrate acts through six mechanisms to increase the levels of nitric oxide and super-oxide even more - which in turn produces more peroxynitrite. This is why peroxynitrate is such a potent cell killer; it reproduces itself. Once peroxynitrite levels hit a certain point, they will be self-sustaining (1).

To summarize: when NO levels hit a certain point, there can be a permanent increase in peroxynitrite levels. This, in turn, increases your chances of a variety of ailments. Some are described below.

Fibromyalgia (FM): Causes pain in all the fibrous tissues in the body, including muscles, ligaments, and tendons. The pain can be incapacitating. It is also associated with oxidative damage. Studies show excessive levels of nitric oxide and peroxynitrite as well as excessive activity in the NMDA system (in the brain) in FM patients. Nitric oxide stimulates nociceptors, neurons that cause the sensation of pain, and peroxynitrite does as well, which could quite possibly be the primary mechanism of action in this illness (2).

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS):Incapacitating fatigue, joint pain (similar to FM pain), inability to concentrate, and flu-like symptoms. Like FM, this is associated with elevated levels of nitric oxide.

Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS): A controversial condition where people have negative responses to sub-toxic levels of various chemicals. Also associated with high nitric oxide levels.

All three of these conditions are chronic, and all three of them are related. They can all develop over a long period of time. What's even more surprising is all three of them are treated with vitamin B12 injections. Coincidentally, B12 is a potent nitric oxide scavenger (3).

I know that in my case, at least, I am no longer going to search for ways of artifically increasing nitric oxide levels. There's no evidence that it increases muscle strength, and there's no evidence that the "pump" is due to anything other than vasiodilation. What's more, there's plenty of evidence that messing with your body's normal balance of NO will do more harm than good.

David

1. Pall ML. Elevated, sustained peroxynitrite levels as the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome. Medical Hypotheses 2000;54:115-125.
2. Pall M. L. Common etiology of posttraumatic stress disorder, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome and multiple chemical sensitivity via elevated nitric oxide/peroxynitrite. Med Hypoth 2001;57:139-145.
3. Pall M. L. Cobalamin used in chronic fatigue syndrome therapy is a nitric oxide scavenger. J Chronic Fatigue Syndr 2001:8(2);39-44.

From shpongled

L-Arginine's function is a precursor to NO. It is not selectively used by iNOS, eNOS, or nNOS, to my knowledge. Since it enters the bloodstream during digestion, perhaps it is primarily utilized by eNOS. Either way, we can be sure that arginine does not increase NOS, just makes more of the NO precursor available to it.

My purpose in this post is to explore ways in which alpha-ketoglutarate (AKG) might increase NO production.

The first step is figuring out as much as I can - or what's relevant at least - about where AKG comes from and it's action on the body. To avoid confusing people too much, O-AKG and OKG are both names for ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate, and A-AKG is arginine alpha-ketoglutarate. To the best of my knowledge arginine and orginine are "carriers" and the body breaks them down separately into the amino acid and AKG. If anyone knows more about this, please let us know.

AKG is, in fact, naturally found in the body as an intermediate in the Kreb's cycle. But like nitric oxide, that does not mean an artifically large amount is a good thing. The body makes AKG when it needs it, where it needs it by itself. In some cases there is deficiency, but rarely in the general population.

AKG is the carbon skeleton of the amino acid glutamate. The rate at which AKG metabolizes into glutamate is relatively slow, so AKG could have an effect on the body independent of glutamate. A new study I found shows that AKG has a unique effect on the body. Some quotes from the study:

"OKG is usually recognized as generating glutamine, arginine and polyamines.... Inhibition of glutamine synthetase showed that glutamine production was not involved in the action of OKG. The use of S-methylthiourea and difluoromethylornithine demonstrated that OKG modulated the respiratory burst via nitric oxide (NO*) and polyamine generation. Moreover, OKG stimulated PMN migration via NO*, but arginine administration failed to reproduce this effect. These data suggest that OKG (or its metabolites) and arginine are channelled differently in PMNs. This hypothesis deserves further study."

As you can see, the effects of dietary AKG, the compound in all these NO products, is barely understood. Only a few things about it are known. It could have a variety of positive and negative benefits in different doses. So, since we know AKG breaks down into glutamate for sure, there are two possible compounds that exhibit toxic effects:

-AKG
-Glutamate

We know that excess amounts of glutamate can do quite a bit of damage to begin with. So we'll take a look at that first.

Glutamate, at first glance, seems like it couldn't be toxic at all. It's the most common excitatory neurotransmittor, and essential for brain function. Another name for glutamate is glutamic acid - a nonessential amino acid. They are essentially the same, although glutamate technically is an anion of glutamic acid. Whey protein is about 10% L-glutamic acid. Since L-glutamic acid is nonessential, it is very likely that additional supplementation can do more harm than good. A VERY interesting read on glutamine, glutamate etc. is here:

http://www.dietsexercise.com/glutamine-text4.htm
From this text:

quote:
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Glutamate is our chief excitatory neurotransmitter. It is essential for learning and both short-term and long-term memory. Problems arise only if the normal process of glutamate removal and conversion to glutamine malfunctions and an excess of this excitatory neurotransmitter builds up in the synaptic junctions. Excess glutamate causes excessive influx of calcium ions into the neurons causing excitotoxicity and ultimately even death of the neurons. It also destroys glutathione - a crucial brain-protective antioxidant. Low levels of brain glutathione are associated with neurodegenerative disorders. Glutathione depletion further leads to neuronal death.
Under what conditions do we see excess levels of glutamate at the synapses? Not surprisingly, we see evidence of damage associated with excess glutamate in Alzheimer's, AIDS patients, and cancer patients. The AIDS virus inhibits glutamate uptake by the glia. According to one hypothesis, cancer starts with brain dysfunction and in those who have suffered a severe brain injury. Very high fever or artificially induced hyperthermia can also result in excess glutamate release, leading to seizures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Over-stimulation of glutamate receptors is ALSO associated with Lou Gehrig's Disease and epilepsy. This is quite a list of conditions so far.

Confused at first (because it seems dietary glutamate doesn't have much of an effect on brain levels), I remembered that the glutamate from MSG was specifically implicated in CFS/FM etc. I stumbled upon this (warning: politically motivated?) website: http://www.truthinlabeling.org/msgfacts.html. A quote: "MSG-sensitivity is a sensitivity to free glutamic acid that occurs in food as a consequence of manufacture. All protein contains glutamic acid bound in it, but only when glutamic acid has been freed from protein before it is eaten do people have MSG-sensitivity reactions, provided that they ingest amounts that exceed their individual tolerance levels. Some unadulterated protein may have minute amounts of free glutamic acid associated with it, but MSG-sensitive people do not generally report adverse reactions following ingestion of unadulterated protein."

Another: "The names of most other MSG-containing ingredients won't give consumers even a clue to the fact that the ingredients contain MSG. "Monosodium glutamate," "monopotassium glutamate," "autolyzed yeast," "hydrolyzed soy protein," and "sodium caseinate," are examples of ingredients that always contain MSG." It seems hydrolyzed protein sources are especially implicated, which makes sense because they contain aminos in their free form.

What I think, at this point, is that glutamic acid in a protein source is harmless. However, free form glutamic acid can somehow disrupt the levels of glutamate in the brain, causing over-excitation of neurotransmittors. This might be a good reason why hydrolyzed protein sources might not be so great after all. So basically I've come full circle: back to AKG. If it's arginine-AKG or ornithine-AKG, I would logically think it wouldn't qualify as "free form." So, back to looking at how these substances metabolize.

Remember that above I stated that OKG metabolizes into glutamate, but doesn't seem to effect L-glutamine levels. This is where the pieces start to fit together. Another quote from the L-glutamine article (2):

quote:
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However, the use of glutamine as a free amino acid has never been associated with any form of brain damage. Glutamine is in fact abundantly produced in the brain as a vital defense against ammonia and also against excess glutamate. The main defense against glutamate excitotoxicity is the synthesis of glutamine by cells called the glia, or more specifically, astroglia or astrocytes. They are most abundant type of cell in the central nervous system exhibiting high amounts of glutamine synthase. The healthy brain is very well equipped to deal with glutamate. But, when the brain is damaged due to stroke or injury or the accumulation of various neurotoxins including certain drugs, the stage is set for glial dysfunction and hence for glutamate excitotoxicity.
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So... here's where the unique effects of AKG come into play. Normally, excess glutamate is readily metabolized into glutamine, which protects against the neurotoxicity. But somehow, O-AKG (and A-AKG as well I'm assuming) increase glutamate levels without the corresponding increase in glutamine. Through some mechanism, they bypass the body's primary defense against excess glutamate.

This is how glutamate levels are increased in the brain. This is universally accepted as a bad thing. This is how AKG can excite the NMDA receptors, leading to excess levels of nitric oxide. In a future post, I'll look at that more closely. I think it's safe to say, at this point, that this can be taken as a given:

-Arginine AKG and Ornithine AKG increase levels of glutamate above normal. Consumption of glutamic acid in protein or L-glutamine will not do this. Consumption of free-form glutamic acid *may* do this, but that issue is no longer relevant.
-The above-normal levels of glutamate would explain the excess amount of nitric oxide when these supplements are taken.

That's all for now. Sorry if this is disjointed, I typed as I researched and then went back and did a small amount of editing.

David

1. Moinard C et al., Effects of ornithine 2-oxoglutarate* on neutrophils in stressed rats: evidence for the involvement of nitric oxide and polyamines. Clin Sci (Lond) Mar 2002; 102(3):287-95 (*2-oxoglutarate = OKG)
2. http://www.dietsexercise.com/glutamine-text4.htm