Coming out of the hole...

[fog_hat1981]

Okay guys - I could really use some experienced powerlifters or other "experts" advice on this subject (preferably folks who have actually "done" this stuff)....

What do you guys do to specifically increase this portion of your lift? I squat ass to grass "most" days but the weight I can move is questionable at best when compared to when I do box squats to focus on hip movement and sitting into the squat etc. I have tried simply focusing on "coming out of the hole" as well but that hasn't done as much as I would like it to. On a good day (and where I've eliminated supersets etc) I can load up at least 5 plates on each side with a box squat for 12-15 reps but taking it to the floor (literally) leaves me looking at maybe 3 1/2 plates per side for 12-15 reps simply because the lowest portion of the lift "sticks". I'm willing to try bands or whatever - I just need some pointers. If someone wants to send me to a powerlifting site as well I'm more than willing to do whatever it takes to learn. I would *like* to consider myself fairly strong for my size but of course the need to move more weight is always on my mind - I'm a firm believer that heavy weights make for a better everything - I just need some help in getting past this particular issue

[THE BOUNCER]

bump for nekra or control.

[Stonecold54]

I tried to post an article but it didn't come out aesthically well. so here is the link but FOG I think its what you were getting at.
http://www.exercisecertification.com...08/TriReps.pdf

[Mr incredible]

5 plates a side is awsome even in box squat fashion. It definitely sounds like that grunt thing buell was talking about in response to my thread. Do we have any powerlifters on here?

[Nekrawulf]

Common problem.

Whats going on is when you get that low, your hamstrings are shortening to the point that they actually pull your hips under you causing whats called a "butt wink".

With your hips pulled under, you can properly engage them to generate the required amount of upward thrust.

The best advice I can give you is work on Hamstring flexibility. As your squat "matures" (this means maintainign proper hip alignment from top to bottom) you will see more power generated on the bottom end.

[Control]

I don't know how much you weigh, but 365 ass-to-the-grass for 15 reps is very good. I can do it with 315, but I honestly don't know if I could do it with 365 right now.

Have you mastered romanian deadlifts? That's an excellent lift for strengthening the glutes and hams as well as increasing hamstring flexibility. You have to get your form down though.

What size box are you using for box squats? Is it a parallell box? You might just need to get a shorter box and start working your way down.

[Control]

Bump for foghat what size box are you using?

[buell1965]

okie dokie i will add my 2 cents.comin outa the hole is the most important part of all 3 lifts.the bench in a legit meet is butt stays on the bench wait for the command to press which means u have pause the load without movement for up to 2 to 3 seconds(yes i have had judges hold me that long just to f-with me).at the command to press is the comin out of the hole..in a nut shell u got to have that torque to reverse the move(low end grunt).the squat... in a legit meet u must break the plane of the thigh,so again what ever your methods are keep in mind takin it down is the easy part and comin up is not quite as easy but still not the key ,the key is that very small window when the load goes from down to up at your lowest point (the grunt and torque and low end horse power)in most cases if u can get it up at least 30% of complete, the lift has a good chance of living and conversley if u cant break it and get it going the other way your lift is dead at that point.now here is the monster,while in the bench and squat if you are clever and well versed in the art u can use the built up energy in the load and your frame to aid the lift but not the case in the deadlift ,u start in the hole plain and simple so if u cant get it movin ...well need i say more?.in most meets the squat and deadlift will decide your fate so hence the lowerbody grunt importance..anyways Rock On .

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by Control

Bump for foghat what size box are you using?

I was on a 17" and I just started working on a 15" - what would you recommend?

Originally Posted by buell1965

okie dokie i will add my 2 cents.comin outa the hole is the most important part of all 3 lifts.the bench in a legit meet is butt stays on the bench wait for the command to press which means u have pause the load without movement for up to 2 to 3 seconds(yes i have had judges hold me that long just to f-with me).at the command to press is the comin out of the hole..in a nut shell u got to have that torque to reverse the move(low end grunt).the squat... in a legit meet u must break the plane of the thigh,so again what ever your methods are keep in mind takin it down is the easy part and comin up is not quite as easy but still not the key ,the key is that very small window when the load goes from down to up at your lowest point (the grunt and torque and low end horse power)in most cases if u can get it up at least 30% of complete, the lift has a good chance of living and conversley if u cant break it and get it going the other way your lift is dead at that point.now here is the monster,while in the bench and squat if you are clever and well versed in the art u can use the built up energy in the load and your frame to aid the lift but not the case in the deadlift ,u start in the hole plain and simple so if u cant get it movin ...well need i say more?.in most meets the squat and deadlift will decide your fate so hence the lowerbody grunt importance..anyways Rock On .

DUDE - I really appreciate the response and I love the way you put things - I was looking forward to hearing what your advice was too seeing that I knew you were knowledgeable about these things but WTH DID YOU JUST SAY ??? I understand that coming out of the hole on most all lifts is the most important part but HOW do I work on that ????

[Control]

[quote=fog_hat1981;428621]I was on a 17" and I just started working on a 15" - what would you recommend?



[quote]

12" eventually. How does the 15" feel? You should be dropping down below paralell, which at 5'8" has got to be under 17" or even 15"

[buell1965]

Originally Posted by fog_hat1981

I was on a 17" and I just started working on a 15" - what would you recommend?



DUDE - I really appreciate the response and I love the way you put things - I was looking forward to hearing what your advice was too seeing that I knew you were knowledgeable about these things but WTH DID YOU JUST SAY ??? I understand that coming out of the hole on most all lifts is the most important part but HOW do I work on that ????

yea i did miss the point of your thread ,sorry bout that.anyways lets look at your lowerback work mainly erectors and glute ham tie in and also dont laugh but the abs.are u doing deads and if what convent or sumo.for me a good feeling bout my deadlift training had a direct connection with my sqauts..anyways aside from the box what else in the lowerbody core area is on the agenda.but a gotta tell ya the numbers u have on non box arent to shabby so u gotta be on the right track.

[buell1965]

ok foghat i had time at work to smoke this over and all the dribble bout how a meet works was i guess a way to show it takes the sum of parts to make a whole .ok heres where im at ,its obvious u have been sqauttin and i mean old school style and that makes me old heart feel good,but the squat can only take it so far and by that i mean your core needs a bit of slammin to ..bear with me here..ok take a line just below your chest and go cross ways,that is the line that defines the lower body in a heavy squat and when i say lowerbody i mean in order abdominals(stability),spinal erectors (stability)and not but not least upper glute tie in .ok with that being said u gotta ask how do i strengthen those?well i can tell ya just by your stats u are close to me although a tad taller and a bit more heavy and what makes us shorter people crank out more than our taller and more gangly counter parts...leverage and more to the point our shorter bodytrunks which in the lifting game is a advantage.trust me u have not hit a stickin point in the squat,it is that u gotta key on the drivers that make the squat work hence the core lower body babble..ok i sumo light on heavy squat days and squat light on heavy dead days,u work a slightly different angle on the lower trunk and those areas that get hit on heavy squat day get a little break on light dead day and those areas that get slammed on dead day get a lil break on heavy squat days...anyways keep it old school .

[FitnessBrat]

lol @ buell - when are you gonna get back over to general chat

[fog_hat1981]

12" eventually. How does the 15" feel? You should be dropping down below paralell, which at 5'8" has got to be under 17" or even 15"

15" is working pretty well - should I just lighten things up and go ahead and jump to a 12" or what though?

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by buell1965

yea i did miss the point of your thread ,sorry bout that.anyways lets look at your lowerback work mainly erectors and glute ham tie in and also dont laugh but the abs.are u doing deads and if what convent or sumo.for me a good feeling bout my deadlift training had a direct connection with my sqauts..anyways aside from the box what else in the lowerbody core area is on the agenda.but a gotta tell ya the numbers u have on non box arent to shabby so u gotta be on the right track.

I usually do conventional deadlifts and romanian deadlifts/rack pulls as well (maybe those last two more so though). I have an injured quad from a nasty bout of goalkeep last week so I only pulled 585 from just below the knee yesterday - I pulled that twice at around the 10 rep mark before my leg started screaming at me to give it a break. I could have pulled more if it hadn't have been for the leg issue. Of course I *think* I'm fairly strong in the erectors/glutes/hams I just lack the development in the glute/ham tie in it *seems*...

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by buell1965

ok foghat i had time at work to smoke this over and all the dribble bout how a meet works was i guess a way to show it takes the sum of parts to make a whole .ok heres where im at ,its obvious u have been sqauttin and i mean old school style and that makes me old heart feel good,but the squat can only take it so far and by that i mean your core needs a bit of slammin to ..bear with me here..ok take a line just below your chest and go cross ways,that is the line that defines the lower body in a heavy squat and when i say lowerbody i mean in order abdominals(stability),spinal erectors (stability)and not but not least upper glute tie in .ok with that being said u gotta ask how do i strengthen those?well i can tell ya just by your stats u are close to me although a tad taller and a bit more heavy and what makes us shorter people crank out more than our taller and more gangly counter parts...leverage and more to the point our shorter bodytrunks which in the lifting game is a advantage.trust me u have not hit a stickin point in the squat,it is that u gotta key on the drivers that make the squat work hence the core lower body babble..ok i sumo light on heavy squat days and squat light on heavy dead days,u work a slightly different angle on the lower trunk and those areas that get hit on heavy squat day get a little break on light dead day and those areas that get slammed on dead day get a lil break on heavy squat days...anyways keep it old school .

You rock man - I really really appreciate this advice - I'm not a powerlifter but I love old school so thanks for the upbeat message. I've been working on pinpointing my issue with this stuff the past week or two and I *think* I've narrowed it down to the fact that I have a serious issue in flexibility. The "butt wink" that Nekrawulf was referring to is where I seem to be having the most issues - I can tell the second my tailbone dips that I lose all sorts of power/strength (and if I remember from my schooling it's also a dangerous position for the lower back to be in once the tailbone drops etc). I'm going to take a rounded approach to this and try...

Working on my flexibility, sticking with the old school methods of strength training/exercises and quite simply learn to be patient - I think patience is my biggest obstacle in this game ....

[fog_hat1981]

Originally Posted by Control

I don't know how much you weigh, but 365 ass-to-the-grass for 15 reps is very good. I can do it with 315, but I honestly don't know if I could do it with 365 right now.

Have you mastered romanian deadlifts? That's an excellent lift for strengthening the glutes and hams as well as increasing hamstring flexibility. You have to get your form down though.

What size box are you using for box squats? Is it a parallell box? You might just need to get a shorter box and start working your way down.

I'm just going to list some of my hip/glute/erector/ham lifts - they're all what I workout with - never really anything less than 8 reps and often times up to the 12-15 mark. I thought maybe if I listed out the lifts I usually rotate into the mix for my first exercises you could possibly point out any glaring weaknesses (like maybe the low weight on good mornings etc?). That and maybe you can point me in the direction of some lifts I'm overlooking or something of that nature.

I typically do rdl's/rack pulls with anywhere from 545 to 635 and a few times at 675 when I was feeling my best

Sldl's usually with 275 to 315

Wide stance lunges ranging from 225 to 405 depending on whether or not I'm on the smith or free standing (not alternating though - I haven't mastered anything "heavy" with an alternating pattern - YET that is )

Front squats I can usually hang with 275 to 315 but I know I could go heavier if my shoulders would just cooperate

Standard deadlifts I can typically pull anywhere from 455 to 545 but I'm convinced that's only because I don't do them quite as often as I "could" (although I try to change things up ALL the time so it's hard to handicap myself like that IMO)

Good mornings with 135 (to be safe although this is almost ALWAYS a finishing exercise and not a starter)

I was on a push/pull routine with one day on and one day off throughout the early part of the fall - in November I switched to a Monday,Tuesday, Thursday, Friday routine but incorporated 5 workouts into that 4 day timeframe so I was only hitting the same workout every 7-9 days (I hope that makes sense) - and then in January I hit up a push/pull/leg routine with something similar to a 2 day on 1 day off program BUT I would occasionally resort back to the 4 day a week on a 5 workout routine just because I missed it ....

[buell1965]

Originally Posted by fog_hat1981

You rock man - I really really appreciate this advice - I'm not a powerlifter but I love old school so thanks for the upbeat message. I've been working on pinpointing my issue with this stuff the past week or two and I *think* I've narrowed it down to the fact that I have a serious issue in flexibility. The "butt wink" that Nekrawulf was referring to is where I seem to be having the most issues - I can tell the second my tailbone dips that I lose all sorts of power/strength (and if I remember from my schooling it's also a dangerous position for the lower back to be in once the tailbone drops etc). I'm going to take a rounded approach to this and try...

Working on my flexibility, sticking with the old school methods of strength training/exercises and quite simply learn to be patient - I think patience is my biggest obstacle in this game ....

thanx for the flower..anyways the butt wink and tail dippin has a lot to do with what i was sayin ,u can feast at the squat table of the gods but u gotta tend to the little guys so when i say core, i mean your quad horsepwer is dam good its the other groups that throw in to make it happen..ok just skimmed your other post and glad to see the lunge in there(and rest in mind its not a just chick thing and i my self can and will puke myself into a frenzy doin them (major ham stress)..soo i know u get the abs and other such things but in addition try after the sqaut and deadlift session burnin out on hyperextensions and trust me nothin freaks the lower trunk out more than that .so do take care of the back cause u never know what will be hitchin a ride on it in life and in the gym....and by that i mean my background has been a huge help in makin ma money..Rock On

[buell1965]

Originally Posted by FitnessBrat

lol @ buell - when are you gonna get back over to general chat

thanx mrs brat, its just that i know a little bout liftin and have a need to keep our young bulls away from them dam machines.anyways again thanx(a belt on a chick that reads ..yes i am the other fuckin princess)kills me and if that is not on your belt i will just throw it in and call it over....oh i know its old but...rock on

[FitnessBrat]

Originally Posted by buell1965

thanx mrs brat, its just that i know a little bout liftin and have a need to keep our young bulls away from them dam machines.anyways again thanx(a belt on a chick that reads ..yes i am the other fuckin princess)kills me and if that is not on your belt i will just throw it in and call it over....oh i know its old but...rock on

Them darn young'ens ...

[buell1965]

Originally Posted by FitnessBrat

Them darn young'ens ...

ding dang whippersnappers..but i gotta tell ya this is a fun bunch yall got here and if i may say some sharp cookies. i get a real kick when i stop bye ..anyways RO.