seriously considering running some GH for my shoulder

[Androman]

seriously considering running some GH for my shoulder

Nandrolone is Nandrolone so you will get that lubricating effect. As for being permanently shutdown, i can't tell you for sure but as you get older recovery can become much more difficult. I guess it all comes down to your genetics.

If you're worried about Deca sides, I'd get cabergoline. But I think you should be okay if you keep E2 in check, don't quote me on this. Just be sure to have anti-prolactin ancillary on hand.

If you were on TRT dose and had the funds for it (and the source) I'd say get real primobolan & run 600-800mg alongside tb500 and the GH. You don't have to worry about nandrolone sides or Eq. And you will have a better look to your physique. You seem like an old timer, I know a lot of vets over at PM who like TRT dose test w/ high primo. Side effect friendly and better look overall.


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[jack tors]

I remember seeing an article showing GH increase collagen by 600%

[BowHunter]

Nandrolone is Nandrolone so you will get that lubricating effect. As for being permanently shutdown, i can't tell you for sure but as you get older recovery can become much more difficult. I guess it all comes down to your genetics.

If you're worried about Deca sides, I'd get cabergoline. But I think you should be okay if you keep E2 in check, don't quote me on this. Just be sure to have anti-prolactin ancillary on hand.

If you were on TRT dose and had the funds for it (and the source) I'd say get real primobolan & run 600-800mg alongside tb500 and the GH. You don't have to worry about nandrolone sides or Eq. And you will have a better look to your physique. You seem like an old timer, I know a lot of vets over at PM who like TRT dose test w/ high primo. Side effect friendly and better look overall.


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Yeah, I hear you. My last cycle was a few years ago but still in my 40's. I thought recovery was harder that time but who knows since I hadn't done a cycle before that for years so my memory wasn't fresh.

I'm at the stage now where I just want to be happy and healthy with no pain in my shoulders. Looking good and being really strong is a nice side effect. Don't get me wrong: If I could add some of my mass back while healing my shoulders, I would definitely like to do that.

If I can get my tendons where I need them to be pain free, this may be my last cycle. I am getting to old for this shit, LOL. I worked in cancer research for a dozen years so I am sensitive to things that can exacerbate prostate cancer and AAS can absolutely do that and the risk increases with age. Personally, I don't think AAS after 50 is a good idea. If I make progress but am not quite there yet in terms of healing, I may do another but I hope if I throw everything I have at it this time I can get where I want to be.

After this first month, maybe I can stack some of these pro-tendon drugs.

Maybe something like:

Deca or NPP (300 mg ew or 50 mg ed)
EQ or a shorter Bold ester (300 mg ew)
Anavar (40 mg ed for 4 to 6 weeks)
Test (100 mg ew)
Proviron (20 to 25 mg ed for the duration for labido)
HGH (2 ius ed for at least 3 months)
TB-500 (2 mg e5d if I can afford it)

Ancillaries and supps:

Accutane (on hand if needed to combat acne from test)
a-dex (0.5 mg eod)
Caber (on hand to deal with prolactin if needed)
cialis (on hand if needed to deal with BPH and/or labido)
Spirulina, Garlic oil, Resveritrol, Red yeast exstract, fish oil (to keep my cholesterol levels good)
Creatine (for the synergy and because why not?)
R-ALA or NAS (liver protectant)
Saw Palmetto (to avoid BPS and maybe won't have to resort to the cialis)
Rogaine (duh, LOL)
multivitamin
Did I forget anything?

PCT

Timing depends on the esters. Nolvadex for 6 weeks

Diet

3500 cals ed (have to work up to that)
200 g + protein (some probably in shake form)
50% protein, 40 % carbs, 10% fat

[Androman]

Sure if you want to go that route go for it. I'd do the shorter esters. To be honest if I were you and had those concerns I wouldn't run any DHTs, but as long as you're taking proper precautions Id think you'll be fine. Just be safe.


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[BowHunter]

Oh yeah, forgot the Ostarine. Bouncer posted something on the benefits of that with PCT to avoid losing some gains.

[Bouncer]

Thanks Androman; good article. While I am running the GH and tb-500 for this first month, I may restructure that cycle I was planning to include a more tendon centered approach.

The increase in colligen synthesis with deca should be similar to NPP, right? They are both nandrolone. I have never run really long acting esters like deca or equipoise. At my age, I am leery of keeping my hpta shut down for so long. I don't know that is a valid worry though. Do you know if the danger of getting permanently shut down increases with age?

I did run shorter esters of boldenone and nandrolone once. I got probably the best weight and strength gains ever on the nandrolone. I ran the boldenone while cutting a little BF just to prevent muscle loss while doing lots of cardio. The esters were almost the same size as enanthate. I ran 400 mgs ew of boldenone hexanoate for 9 weeks for that cutting cycle and dropped 4% BF.

Are maintenance doses of test enough to avoid deca dick? How about adding a bit of proviron to the mix?

Hell, I should go all out and run them ALL, BWAHAHAHAHAHA. a gram each ew! Maybe I'll turn green and lose the ability to talk in complete sentences.

bro you gotta understand. test levels at 49 are almost like being permanently shutdown anyway. your natty levels are doing nothing for you in the gym i promise you. just go on trt dose for life. 200mgs e5d. youll feel a shit load better i promise you.

If you don't believe me go get blood work. Guarantee your test levels are dirt low.

[BowHunter]

I have been reading up on HRT in older men. While there are studies that show benefits to muscle and bone integrety as well as improvements in mood and labido, True long term studies have yet to be done as far as I've read so far. The main risk seems to be acceleration of existing prostate cancer. This wasn't new to me as I already knew prostate cancer is testosterone sensitive. What was new to me was the percentage of men who will get at least early stage prostate cancer by age 60. I cut and pasted this from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686341/

"Among these risks, the potential effects of testosterone on the prostate are of the greatest concern. These concerns stem from the known action of testosterone in accelerating active prostate cancer and from the high prevalence of early-stage prostate cancer in elderly men. While approximately 10% of men will develop clinically manifest prostate cancer in their lifetime and ∼3% will die of the disease, autopsy data show that 42% of men over the age of 60 have early-stage prostate cancer (Mikuz 1997). Clinical trials to date are not large enough or long enough to determine the potential effects of testosterone treatment on prostate cancer. Although Zitzmann et al (2003) have shown that replacement and slightly higher doses of testosterone produce a predictable and moderate degree of prostate enlargement, existing data do not indicate that testosterone promotes prostate cancer. Hajjar et al (1997) treated elderly men with a replacement dose of testosterone and found no increase in prostate cancer during a 2-year follow-up. Agarwal and Oefelein (2005) administered testosterone for 19 months to hypogonadal patients with a history of prostate cancer and prostatectomy, but whose recent PSA levels were low. Treatment significantly elevated circulating testosterone and improved quality of life without elevating PSA."

HOLY SHIT! 42% of men at age 60 or greater have early stage prostate cancer! That is pretty fucking scary. All you older guys out there better be getting PSA levels checked on a regular basis; especially if you use AAS.

[BowHunter]

The data is from autopsy data. Maybe that method of data aquisition selects for men with illnesses or issues that are life threatening. Maybe that explains the high percentages. Are autopsies routine for people who don't die under suspicious circumstances? I don't know. Prostate cancer is usually very slow growing though; I know that. It is plausable to me that someone could have early stage prostate cancer for years without any symptoms.

Maybe the sky isn't falling but that number sure as hell woke me up. Any medical doctors out there who wants to chime in?

[BowHunter]

I found this regarding AAS and healing, there is no studies to proving this though so you never know. But I will tell you this; I used to have nagging elbow pains and I once ran Boldenone at 1200mg for 8 weeks (until sides kicked in horribly) my elbow pain actually went away and my bones felt a lot better. Til this day they feel good and healthy.

"While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.


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Hey Rado, can you post the citation for this information? Especially the info about increases in collagen synthesis. I am having a conversation with my doctor about my plans and I want to have some good journal citations to give him. Thanks.

[Bouncer]

convo with doc about AAS will go something like this.

"steroids are bad dont use them"..

the end. lol

[BowHunter]

Nah, my doc is cool. He says something like "Well I don't mind keeping you monitered for safety but I don't condone your using them." I offered to send him some articles so he knows where I'm getting my information.

[bowhunter27541]

LOL, This is my old post. What a blast from the past! For any who are interested, My results from this saga went pretty well. The cycle I ended up doing wasn't quite as good as the one outlined in this thread (some expensive house repairs took all my money). I did 2 IU of GH for 3 or 4 months along with 350 mg ew equipoise + 350 mg ew deca + 25 mg test E (just to keep my test up to at least physiological levels). If my diet had been a little cleaner, I am sure I would have seen even better gains but I still gained 15 or 20 lbs over 12 weeks and less then 10% body fat. My shoulder got a lot better and I could work out without serious pain and that stayed after the cycle as well so it did what I was after even if I didn't realize the gains I could have had with a better diet. Unfortunately, I did not, in fact, turn green and lose the ability to talk in complete sentences :)

[bowhunter27541]

In fact, I was looking in my gear box yesterday where I stored all my gear, syringes, ancillaries, etc. and found that I still have like a half a vial of deca and a half a vial of test E. They have been stored in an air conditioned, dark environment. Do you think they are still good? I would be worried about bacteria contamination since the vials were punctured but that isn't anything a 0.45 micron filter wouldn't cure. Has anyone here ever used gear that old before?

I also found some BA and BB from my home brewing days and I have some fina pellets that have been in the fridge for the last 10 years, LOL.

I know I should just throw that shit away but part of me really hates to waste gear. I am still putting together my plan for my new cycle to help my arm. This time, I have the money.

It's a tendon issue again so I am thinking what worked this last time would probably be good this time and this time, I won't fuck up on my diet. I didn't really think I got too much out of the Eq though so unless I use up the half vial I have just to use it, I will skip that one. I am thinking 100 mg eod NPP + 2 ( or 3?) IU GH ed + 25 mg ed dbol. Run the dbol for the first 8 weeks; continue the NPP for 12 weeks and the GH for 6 months.

Ancillaries: I definitely need an antiestrogen as I am prone to gyno. I used Adex last time and it worked fine but it does tend to affect my lipid profile badly. Would exemestane be better? I already have tamoxifen but I will need to get clomid, ostarine, and cardarine as I want to try Bouncer's "perfect pct" regimen. I will also invest in some liver supps like R-ALA, and NAC, fish oil, Tumeric, and vit D and CQ10 and resveratrol for my lipid profile. Altogether, this will cost me a pretty penny but if I don't do this, I would likely just spend the same money on another gun, LOL; you really can't have too many :)

Bouncer: I pm'd you a question when you have time.

So what do you think? Any advice from the old timers is welcome. My goals are, much like last time, rehab my right arm (biceps tendon reattachment surgery in January) so I can work out without paying for it with weeks of pain and also get my strength back in my right arm. It is seriously weak after 7 months of not lifting more than 5 lbs during recovery. I can still do more than 10 1 arm pushups with my left arm but I can't even get off the ground with my right. I am 56 now. My natural test levels are unusually high (between 600-700). I have dropped some weight due to inactivity but I think it will come back quickly.