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Old 07-16-05, 03:38 AM
Another way of looking at Dbol!!
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found this info on another forum and would like to know what you guys throught
cheers Credit : Mobs @ sizematters.com


The Use of Dianabol as a Supplement


This article was originally intended to be a history of the anabolic steroid dianabol and it's usage in bodybuilding, but there is little real evidence of how it was used in previous decades. However, in the course of research, I have come to the conclusion that current use of dianabol as a supplement is not as efficient as it could be. Most of the modern thoughts on dianabol use reflect around myths and irrelevant scientific studies; this article attempts to explain new ways of thinking on dianabol usage using scientific evidence and people's experiences.

Dianabol (or dbol as it's commonly called) is one of the most commonly used oral steroids. Its chemical name is methanedienone or methandrostenolone and there are many different pharmaceutical and generic varieties including Anabol and Naposim. In this article we look at lower dose usage of dianabol as a supplement, as opposed to using pro-hormones or pro-steroids.

Liver Toxicity of Dianabol
The 17 alpha-alkylated properties of methanedienone do make it liver toxic, but this, I believe, is overstated as most of the evidence of its toxicity comes from studies on individuals and not from studies on large groups of dianabol-using bodybuilders. One study on rats (1) showed that regardless of dose or time of administration, dianabol produces changes in enzymatic activity, which leads to hypertrophy of hepatocytes; which basically shows that dianabol is toxic to the liver. But in another study (2) Nerobol (Russian Dianabol) was found to favour a rapid normalisation of functional and metabolic disorders of the liver, which contradicts the earlier evidence. This shows that the whole idea of dianabol being dangerous is in no way as bad as some would make out.

Benefits of Dianabol Use
Dianabol has been shown to increase anaerobic glycolysis (3), which increases lactic acid build up in the body. This is beneficial because lactic acid is used by the muscles to form glycogen, which in turn provides energy in anaerobic metabolism. Lactic acid is also a key chemical in the disposal of dietary carbohydrates, which means you are less likely to get fat while using dianabol.

A study on osteoporosis (4) showed that at a dosage of just 2.5mg per day for 9 months dianabol was more effective than calcium supplementation in reducing osteoporotic activity, it was also shown to increase muscle mass more effectively. Another study on osteoporosis (5) which lasted 24 months, showed just how dianabol works on osteoporosis; dianabol increased total body calcium, and also total body potassium. This may not mean much to you as a bodybuilder, but the actions of calcium are very important to bodybuilders, as it transports large numbers of amino acids and also creatine and these two things are vital in muscle growth. Potassium is also very important, as it assists in muscle contractions, transmitting nerve signals, and insulin release; so it is also a very anabolic substance.

One very interesting study (6), although not significant in bodybuilding terms, showed that dianabol increases the sensitivity of laryngeal tumour cells to radiotherapy, and concluded 'recommending this hormone to be used during radiotherapy of patients with the laryngeal cancer'.

How to Cycle Dianabol
To create a cycle for dianabol that is based around using it more as a supplement than a steroid, we first need to look at the current trend for cycling dianabol and analyse what is wrong with it. An average cycle of Dianabol is usually structured as 25-40mg split throughout each day for 4-6 weeks, either alone or stacked with other steroids.

Firstly a dose of 25mg or more commonly causes water retention. It is well known that dianabol does aromatise quite easily, and most of the water retention is usually attributed to a build up of excess estrogen. However, it is my belief that initially water retention is caused by the body holding on to water due to the effects of dianabol on the body's mineral balance, in particular the potassium/sodium balance. This coupled with the fact that dianabol cause estrogenic side effects, leads to a lot of water build-up, and as there is little we can do about the change in the bodies mineral balance, the only other thing we can do is try to reduce aromatisation, usually with Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or other anti-estrogens. This is not the only method though, by reducing the dose, less of the drug will aromatise, which leads to less estrogen and more importantly less water retention. Reducing the drug during a cycle would lead to estrogen levels dropping slowly, so we should start the cycle with a lower dose of 10-20mg each day.

Splitting the dosage when you are using a low dose is virtually pointless, as you will get a much smaller peak of the drug. So in this case it is best to take it in a single dose in the morning (preferably with grapefruit juice). Although this will not prevent suppression of natural testosterone, it may lessen it to a certain degree, as your body will still have lengthy periods later in the day when there is little testosterone circulating, and so it may still produce some.

Now if we look at cycle duration, 4-6 weeks seems too short to have any real effect at a low dose, but how can we use dianabol for longer without placing more risk on our liver? The solution is actually quite simple; by taking weekends off from the drug we will give our livers a break from processing the drug. Due to the short half-life any active substances will be out of our system within 24 hours of your last dose, now this may seem like it will cost you gains, but in actual fact it will cost you little or no losses in the long run as even though there is no active drug in the body the effects are still present i.e. extra intramuscular water, and a more anabolic mineral balance. These effects usually taper off over several days. This method will not however, help your natural testosterone to return from its inhibited state, as this process can take considerably longer. If we take weekends off and use a lower dose, we should in theory be able to use dianabol for 10 weeks with no problems. A simple bit of mathematics can show this point best:

* 6 weeks @25mg each day = 1050mg of Dianabol in total
* 10 weeks with weekends off @15mg each day = 750mg of Dianabol in total

So as you can see, by using this system your liver will actually process less dianabol than in a conventional cycle, add this to the fact that you can make gains for 10 weeks instead of 6, and with fewer side effects, and you get a very solid cycle.

Summary
This Cycle Theory can be applied in many different situations, for instance a beginner could use the dianabol on it's own for 10 weeks and gain very well. A more experienced steroid user could use this alongside an injectable cycle for very good gains too, getting the benefit of the initial quick gains of the Dianabol, with the slower but stronger gains of an injectable.

This cycle may seem to go against many of the current trends of dianabol use, but I believe that by using dianabol as a supplement to good training and nutrition you can make very good gains.
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Old 07-16-05, 05:49 AM
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*SC54 puts a bottle of dbol next to vitamin c bottle*
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Old 07-16-05, 01:06 PM
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does that mean that your saying that dbol
is very safe to supplement
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Old 07-16-05, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyslop
does that mean that your saying that dbol
is very safe to supplement
I will preface this by saying I am not trying to be a dick....but it seems you are looking to justify "Something" by having somone else tell you its okay. This post along with your other thread leave me uneasy because I don't think you understand enough about steroids. have you read all the profiles in the anabolic section yet? have you done a search on things you want to know about? there is probably over 100,000 posts that you can search through for information that has already been posted.
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Old 07-16-05, 02:28 PM
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hyslop, no one is telling you to do anything nor is anyone saying that dbol is safe to supplement...rather the original post was presenting a different point of view contrary to popular belief. DO NOT use information provided on this board as completely safe because in fact no one has all the information on substances, and in most cases people are basing their opinions on their own experiences.
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Old 07-16-05, 08:36 PM
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What do you guys with alot of knowledge think about this way?
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Old 07-16-05, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arralou
What do you guys with alot of knowledge think about this way?
i think its BS. anything that is 17 alpha-alkylated like dianabol is very harsh and very dangerous used for long peroids of time.
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Old 07-16-05, 09:08 PM
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Ok, thanks
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Old 07-16-05, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER
i think its BS. anything that is 17 alpha-alkylated like dianabol is very harsh and very dangerous used for long peroids of time.
I don't agree with bouncer on this one...based on the first post alone i think 5-10mg/day of something like dbol, winny, or anavar wouldn't be anymore toxic than a beer or so. and obviously in the context of proper usage people should be doing blood work to keep track of their levels. I might try this at some point to let people know what my results are (and I hope they will realize they will just be my results as people respond to drugs with different levels of reaction).
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Old 07-17-05, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecold54
I don't agree with bouncer on this one...based on the first post alone i think 5-10mg/day of something like dbol, winny, or anavar wouldn't be anymore toxic than a beer or so. and obviously in the context of proper usage people should be doing blood work to keep track of their levels. I might try this at some point to let people know what my results are (and I hope they will realize they will just be my results as people respond to drugs with different levels of reaction).
just remember masswithclass bro. he is dead. he was a big fan of orals. by your thinking 5-10mg/day is the same as a beer. so i guess you would say 50mgs a day is about the same as 5 beers a day. i promise you that 50mg of any 17aa is much worse then 5 beers. your comparison is wrong bro. i would strongly advise against this.
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Old 07-17-05, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER
just remember masswithclass bro. he is dead. he was a big fan of orals. by your thinking 5-10mg/day is the same as a beer. so i guess you would say 50mgs a day is about the same as 5 beers a day. i promise you that 50mg of any 17aa is much worse then 5 beers. your comparison is wrong bro. i would strongly advise against this.
MWC was also taking diuretics for years, which is MUCH harder on the kidneys then any 17aa could ever be.

There is alot of evidence that the 17aa toxicity has been hyped up. I do believe that it has more of an impact on liver than kidneys though, but, with plenty of water and good diet, it should not of any concern for someone taking low to moderate doses, so long as they are not predisposed to a kidney conition.
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Old 07-17-05, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by shortz
MWC was also taking diuretics for years, which is MUCH harder on the kidneys then any 17aa could ever be.

There is alot of evidence that the 17aa toxicity has been hyped up. I do believe that it has more of an impact on liver than kidneys though, but, with plenty of water and good diet, it should not of any concern for someone taking low to moderate doses, so long as they are not predisposed to a kidney conition.
There is also alot of evidence that 17aa toxicity is very dangerous. im not saying that they cant be used at the start of a cycle to kick it off. im saying when people start having the attitude that 17aa's can be eaten like pez is where I draw the line. These are dangerous drugs if not used right. Some kid could come along and read this and say to himself, "hmm, im good to go" and be running dbol straight for 10 years. you know what im saying?

as far as masswithclass goes, im not saying that 17aa's is what caused his kidneys to fail. im simply saying that it could have been one of the causes. i just want people to remember his death and learn something. these things called "bodybuilding drugs" that we talk about all day can be very dangerous. dont ever forget that guys..
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Old 07-17-05, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER
There is also alot of evidence that 17aa toxicity is very dangerous. im not saying that they cant be used at the start of a cycle to kick it off. im saying when people start having the attitude that 17aa's can be eaten like pez is where I draw the line. These are dangerous drugs if not used right. Some kid could come along and read this and say to himself, "hmm, im good to go" and be running dbol straight for 10 years. you know what im saying?

as far as masswithclass goes, im not saying that 17aa's is what caused his kidneys to fail. im simply saying that it could have been one of the causes. i just want people to remember his death and learn something. these things called "bodybuilding drugs" that we talk about all day can be very dangerous. dont ever forget that guys..
I absolutely agree that these drugs are not 100% safe. One person may use them without problem, yet another person may end up with every side effect and health ramification that one could possibly get...high LDL, Hypertension, cardiac hypertrophy, liver or kidney failure etc. That is def a chance we all take and some people are less fortunate to be predisposed, whether it's from a family history or a totally new onset. Although I do believe that these drugs are dangerous and that the 17aa issue is a bit exaggerated, nothing will make the problems just go away if you end up with one and you will live with that mistake for the rest of your life.
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Old 07-17-05, 09:01 AM
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Oh yeah, something I wanted to say also. I just don't like the fact that we forget to mention the main cause of someone's medical condition too. All these drugs are toxic, but let's mention which ones are down right lethal.
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Old 07-17-05, 05:28 PM
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and also in my post I stated that I would be doing blood tests which I don't think MWC was doing. Everything must be done with caution. Orals are no more dangerous than anything else as long as you keep track of your body....luckily steroids have chronic sides instead of acute side which give us time to reverse our status of toxic.
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Old 07-17-05, 06:08 PM
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hey stone, this might change your mind. all 17aa's are made from beef! j/k
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Old 07-17-05, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE BOUNCER
hey stone, this might change your mind. all 17aa's are made from beef! j/k
lol...so they are cow pellets? :drool:
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Old 07-17-05, 11:55 PM
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Just curious about the 17-AA/Dbol conversation....given a set dosage over time, does anyone actually know if liver toxicity levels rise gradually in a linear progression or could these levels come in sporadic leaps and bounds? So, are the liver and kidneys good up until the reach a certain threshold (time length or substance buildup) of exposure and then fail suddenly? And no, I'm not currently taking any 17-AA products right now, so it's cool...but I am curious about their toxicology though.
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Old 07-18-05, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecold54
I will preface this by saying I am not trying to be a dick....but it seems you are looking to justify "Something" by having somone else tell you its okay. This post along with your other thread leave me uneasy because I don't think you understand enough about steroids. have you read all the profiles in the anabolic section yet? have you done a search on things you want to know about? there is probably over 100,000 posts that you can search through for information that has already been posted.
What are you talking about? Did I say anywhere that I would be running a cycle of this kind? No.

I said I found this post and wanted to here what people thought. I personally would not run dbol for ten weeks straight. Does that mean I am right, no it is only my opinion.

What other post of mine are you referring to that makes you feel uneasy?

In a further post you state that you are going to try this method. Why say I need to do more research and then bignote yourself by saying you are going to give it a shot and let everyone know how you do.

The bros that have replied have varying opinions and at the end of the day that is why we post. To voice our opinions and try and clear things up for those that want advice.
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Old 07-18-05, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Savage
What are you talking about? Did I say anywhere that I would be running a cycle of this kind? No.

I said I found this post and wanted to here what people thought. I personally would not run dbol for ten weeks straight. Does that mean I am right, no it is only my opinion.

What other post of mine are you referring to that makes you feel uneasy?

In a further post you state that you are going to try this method. Why say I need to do more research and then bignote yourself by saying you are going to give it a shot and let everyone know how you do.

The bros that have replied have varying opinions and at the end of the day that is why we post. To voice our opinions and try and clear things up for those that want advice.
I was talking to hyslop...that is why his quote is in my post.
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Old 07-18-05, 05:26 AM
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ok..It had me thinking today why you would direct that reply at me. All good.
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