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Old 06-16-09, 06:57 AM
Race/Religion question - sensible debate
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I was talking to a muslim guy the other day who came from pakistan and now lives in England, has 6 kids here. He seemed like a nice guy and when we got into talking about religion we got quite deep and direct with questions. He like many other Muslims condems the actions of extreemists totally and made a point out of quoting Allah in that there are 73 different types of Muslim, only one will go to heaven, anyone that kills another or converts the young or weak minded to islam is no real muslim.

All really decent stuff, we talked some more and he said that its fact, in 30 years or so Britain will become Britistan as the number of muslims will out number any other race and accordingly the country will be controlled by Sharia Law. I said straight away that offends me, that this is a christian country and its systems including health, social support, freedom of speach were built off that background.

I'm proud of my background, English British and I don't want to see the country become a muslim state, does that make me racist?

Also what can I do about it without being racist? I don't want to see my great grand daughter be forced to wear a burkha and cover her body for fear of prosecution I like the way our country is generally run and think its fair, but i don't want to persecute other to protect it.

I could try have 50 kids, but I can't really afford that and it would mean relying on the state to help me financially and I don't want to be a leach parasite, I could vote for a facist party but i don't want to be racist.

Sometimes as a christian white English male I feel like people want you to feel guilty and afraid of speaking your heart for fear of being a racist but how to protect the way of life you have and your grand parents fought for without persecuting others? the politicians seem so frightened to tackle the subject it just seems like as a country we're sleep walking into a Muslim state.

The guy 'Mohamed' also said that it was proven that all blood even that of whites is 85% Arab, I laughed and said yeah well its also true that that your DNA is 98% Ape as is mine, so what?

I know there are Muslim guys on here and hence why I say I want a sensible debate, so come on
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Old 06-16-09, 07:10 AM
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I'm about to leave for work, so I won't get too in depth. First, both Christianity and Islam say in some form that the un-believers should be put to death. I can find quotes later if you want. How people interpret that or try to modernize these archaic beliefs, is very subjective. The battle to which faith should be the majority of a country is an endless battle. That's why the COUNTRY should be secular and let individuals be. Next time you talk to someone that is hoping to change the views of the current country to match the one they left, ask them how well that worked for them in their previous country and if it is so good why not stay where they came from.
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Old 06-16-09, 07:23 AM
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I'm about to leave for work, so I won't get too in depth. First, both Christianity and Islam say in some form that the un-believers should be put to death. I can find quotes later if you want. How people interpret that or try to modernize these archaic beliefs, is very subjective. The battle to which faith should be the majority of a country is an endless battle. That's why the COUNTRY should be secular and let individuals be. Next time you talk to someone that is hoping to change the views of the current country to match the one they left, ask them how well that worked for them in their previous country and if it is so good why not stay where they came from.
Thank you for your input I really appreciate it, there's alot that I'm ignorant of within my own religion which I follow quite losely but love the back bone of. I completely agree that a country should never have a theocratic government but in the case of Islam that does seem to be their end goal wherever they go. I'd be interested in quotes from the original Koran or old or new testiment, I also understand the attrocities comitted by christians in the crusades are nothing to be proud of.

Mohamed was a really amiable character and I appreciated his honesty even if some of it I was offended by, he cited that his understanding was that the last prophet convinced god not to unleash justice on wrong doers until judgement day, ie when someone passes and that its for allah to do that not the individual. He also firmly believes that jihad is a CIA word.

Notwithstanding all this his glee at the prospect of an overwhelming muslim population in the UK was as palpable as my offence at the prospect, right or wrong.
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Old 06-16-09, 07:40 AM
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I don't see how Britain will ever become something other than a Christian state when the queen is still the Queen. Doesn't she believe she is a direct descendant of Jesus?
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Old 06-16-09, 07:50 AM
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i believe in me and i dont care what other people believe. how is that? lol
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Old 06-16-09, 08:46 AM
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I don't see how Britain will ever become something other than a Christian state when the queen is still the Queen. Doesn't she believe she is a direct descendant of Jesus?
The Royals don't run the country we have an elected government that controls everything albeit with a house of lords that decides wether or not statute(law) proposed by the politicians (government) gets passed. The Royals are purely a hangover from yesteryear that we chose to keep around like cultural window dressing. They have no power
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Old 06-16-09, 08:51 AM
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They have no power
false. they have a huge say in what goes on.
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Old 06-16-09, 08:58 AM
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false. they have a huge say in what goes on.
none that couldn't be rescinded, they own a shit load of land and can intervene in a number of things including political direction but it comes in the form of a constitutional pact and if push came to shove they couldn't do jack.

So if for example a sharia government got in power they could make the royals impotent very quickly
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Old 06-16-09, 09:01 AM
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none that couldn't be rescinded, they own a shit load of land and can intervene in a number of things including political direction but it comes in the form of a constitutional pact and if push came to shove they couldn't do jack.

So if for example a sharia government got in power they could make the royals impotent very quickly
yes but you said they have no power and that not true. they have a lot of say in whats going on. they can sway things. so that is power.
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Old 06-16-09, 09:06 AM
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yes but you said they have no power and that not true. they have a lot of say in whats going on. they can sway things. so that is power.
ok ok but in the context of Newbie cris's point where he claims there existence would ensure the perpetual christian based state of Britain, thats what I'm getting at
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Old 06-16-09, 10:53 AM
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Sounds to me you talked to a stupid paki

Honestly, in tehran you can walk around with no hijab and you will fine. That burka shit is extreme and for fundamentalists. England won't adapt to that so don't worry

Converting someone to Islam is a choice that people make. In the Quran, Allah Ta'la says that converting someone to be a Muslim is good and you will be praised for that in heaven. You should brainwash or force someone to convert, that is a sin.
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Old 06-16-09, 11:24 AM
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ok ok but in the context of Newbie cris's point where he claims there existence would ensure the perpetual christian based state of Britain, thats what I'm getting at
I find it hard to believe they would allow the country to start condemning women to death for showing their faces, take away your freedom, etc.
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Old 06-16-09, 11:47 AM
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Don't believe in that one day we'll all be Muslim crap I am a Muslim and I couldn't be any further from the religion I believe in being good period.
Saying one day we'll all be Muslim is like saying one day we'll all be black or Asian or whatever race that they can come up with, It is not possible.
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Old 06-16-09, 04:46 PM
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as a muslim myself, i don't believe in anything the guy spoke to you about. you can't sway someone to believe in something when there is no physical proof causing them to change their viewpoint. all religions have semi-tangible proof but it is all up to personal interpretation. i call myself a muslim agnostic. i only associate myself with a religion if need be and i try not to argue about which religion is better. nor do i tell people that what they are doing is right or wrong based on my religion.

ultimately, religion is a set of moral beliefs with a little talk about what could happen if you follow or fail to follow those moral beliefs. there are then a set of interpretations that elaborate on the words of God but like i said, they are elaborations which happened to be written by people.

i have spoken to people who were extremists and claim that the world will soon be 1 religion and that all other followers of other religions are going to hell and i just go along with them because most of the time they get too excited about the topic and go crazy.

and for the record, islam respects and encompasses all religions. islam actually says the Day of Judgment will come with all the prophets (including moses and jesus and about 150,000 others) sit side by side (representing no sort of hierarchy) and pray. so to say islam says all others will die is just ridiculous.
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Old 06-16-09, 06:38 PM
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Thank you for your input I really appreciate it, there's alot that I'm ignorant of within my own religion which I follow quite losely but love the back bone of. I completely agree that a country should never have a theocratic government but in the case of Islam that does seem to be their end goal wherever they go. I'd be interested in quotes from the original Koran or old or new testiment,
Well the first part of what you said is just picking and choosing. What's the point of having it at all if you aren't going to accept all of it. All you are doing is putting a theological name to being a good person.

I changed my mind on posting quotes because there are easy enough to find with Google and I feel it will digress the conversation to a debate in meaning of them. Some will argue context, metaphorical vs literal and fundy vs modern. The point is, who determines context, literalness and how to apply it in the current era. It all becomes circular and ignores that fact that as individuals some feel that can't be a good person or live a good life without faith.

You say you are happy with England being a christian country, but don't agree with a theocratic government. So which is it? If need be, you can be proud to be a christian in your country, but why define it as a christian country if you don't want a theocracy.



My head is running crazy now with trying to touch on everything that was said so far, so if you need clarification or elaboration just ask .
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Old 06-16-09, 07:17 PM
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[QUOTE=Mr incredible;471094]




Sometimes as a christian white English male I feel like people want you to feel guilty and afraid of speaking your heart for fear of being a racist but how to protect the way of life you have and your grand parents fought for without persecuting others? the politicians seem so frightened to tackle the subject it just seems like as a country we're sleep walking into a Muslim state.

QUOTE]


amen brother fucking amen !!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-17-09, 04:28 AM
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Sounds to me you talked to a stupid paki

Honestly, in tehran you can walk around with no hijab and you will fine. That burka shit is extreme and for fundamentalists. England won't adapt to that so don't worry

Converting someone to Islam is a choice that people make. In the Quran, Allah Ta'la says that converting someone to be a Muslim is good and you will be praised for that in heaven. You should brainwash or force someone to convert, that is a sin.
Thanks for that yeah there's alot I'm ignorant of which is why I posted. The thing is though, Iran may well be more relaxed that Saudi for example, but that wouldn'r rule out an eventual sharia law in the UK, followed by who knows what in terms of laws and fundamentalism, its just a case of numbers and like I said I'm uncomfortable that we seem to be sleep walking towards it. Personally I'd love to have politicians with the balls to limit imigration, we seems to do everything to help everyone else except the indigenous residents in the UK.
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Old 06-17-09, 04:38 AM
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Don't believe in that one day we'll all be Muslim crap I am a Muslim and I couldn't be any further from the religion I believe in being good period.
Saying one day we'll all be Muslim is like saying one day we'll all be black or Asian or whatever race that they can come up with, It is not possible.
Thanks WBB, the thing is your mainly driven by your own descent understanding of right and wrong, at least partly derived from positive teachings of your faith in your formative years, your not insecure about what you think and perhaps this is why you don't feel the need to follow islam in every original literal sense and your very accepting and receptive to other people. I think I'm similar with my christianity.

But not everyone is like that and I suppose its my natural sense of self preservation that feels pinched when someone says what will happen and the country will become islamic, and then explains why and it sounds perfectly plausable if insulting.

I take your point in your last sentance but I would remind you of history; pol pot, Hitler, they all tried and virtually suceeded in their own countries in creating singe race populations by genocide. Although I'd never expect that it is plausable that the indigenous could become opressed in culture over time following vote induced change of government, itself made possible by shift in population composition, and one would have to say, the Muslim population world wide is probably growing at a faster rate than any other.
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Old 06-17-09, 04:43 AM
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why define it as a christian country if you don't want a theocracy..
Because the church doesn't control the government, so its not a theocracy in the UK. Its a theocracy I don't want, government should be top level policy makers, the culture and values of the Uk were founded on christian basics historically is all I'm saying.

In Iran for example, you have elections for the political leader, but ultimately the supreme leader is the religious leader, therefor this is a theocracy as are most muslim countris that are run by muslim clerics, completely different.

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Old 06-17-09, 05:18 AM
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Because the church doesn't control the government, so its not a theocracy in the UK. Its a theocracy I don't want, government should be top level policy makers, the culture and values of the Uk were founded on christian basics historically is all I'm saying.

In Iran for example, you have elections for the political leader, but ultimately the supreme leader is the religious leader, therefor this is a theocracy as are most muslim countris that are run by muslim clerics, completely different.
The political leader is the one that makes the changes of the country. If that country is ok with that leader making changes to a country in conjunctions with his/her beliefs, how is that any different than a leader who gets advisement from a leader of the religion?

How do people vote on the equal rights issues? It's according to what they believe is the correct natural order. For example the biggest topic is gay marriage. Why are people apposed to that equal right? Faith. In a fundamentalist Muslim country, why don't women have equal rights? Faith.

So you see how it doesn't matter if you have a leader who is religious or a religious leader, it's essentially the same.
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Old 06-17-09, 05:20 AM
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I find it hard to believe they would allow the country to start condemning women to death for showing their faces, take away your freedom, etc.
they could in principle do what they do in other islam countries
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Old 06-17-09, 05:33 AM
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The political leader is the one that makes the changes of the country. If that country is ok with that leader making changes to a country in conjunctions with his/her beliefs, how is that any different than a leader who gets advisement from a leader of the religion?

How do people vote on the equal rights issues? It's according to what they believe is the correct natural order. For example the biggest topic is gay marriage. Why are people apposed to that equal right? Faith. In a fundamentalist Muslim country, why don't women have equal rights? Faith.

So you see how it doesn't matter if you have a leader who is religious or a religious leader, it's essentially the same.
I say again, see Iran, there ayatollah ali khamenei is the supreme leader and ultimately in charge. As I think you said earlier, countries should be run by voted in governments not religious leaders. Religious leaders or dictators are difficult to shift and often become tyranical unless their powers are diluted into governments. I find it impossible to believe that you don't know this, practically any country rulled by religion has become tyranical throughout history.

I don't want my country ruled by a muslim leader
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Old 06-17-09, 05:39 AM
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I understand that you don't want your country ruled by a muslim leader or any leader that would be governing according to faith and not the will of the people. But you are ignoring the fact that the leader you vote in according to who is sympathetic to your faith and values is going to govern that way. Would you vote for an Atheist that is slightly more qualified than the Christian opponent?
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Old 06-17-09, 05:48 AM
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I understand that you don't want your country ruled by a muslim leader or any leader that would be governing according to faith and not the will of the people. But you are ignoring the fact that the leader you vote in according to who is sympathetic to your faith and values is going to govern that way. Would you vote for an Atheist that is slightly more qualified than the Christian opponent?
Answers to each sentance;

1) agreed
2) good argument, however I would point out that I'm not ignoring it, I just appreciate that it alligns with the wants and needs of the majority and continues the culture and beliefe that this country is founded upon and have fought to protect. I detest what I see in muslim states and would hate that to happen here, its vote numbers that win elections (in this country at least), muslims are the fastest growing and I don't think they are all as reserved as Wanabeabeast, certainly not once they are in power as evidenced by muslim states.
3)Yes

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Old 06-17-09, 06:56 AM
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So my point is the pendulum swings both ways. If you allow your leader to govern according to the majority faith of the country in it's current state, then you are responsible for allowing that if a Muslim leader got into office. You can combat that now by encouraging people to vote on the topics and not a leaders faith. That includes stuff like gay marriage. It may go against your faith, but if that is the only or the majority of your argument then when the pendulum swings the other way you have also created a government that allows that kind of influence. It may not sit with you well to have to give up some social restrictions that accompany your faith and values, but it will also make it much harder for another's faith and values to be implemented into your social structure.

On a side note, something you said earlier that I forgot to touch on was when you said

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the Muslim population world wide is probably growing at a faster rate than any other.
According to the most recent reports, the fastest growth rate belongs to a secular point of view.
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Old 06-17-09, 08:01 AM
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So my point is the pendulum swings both ways. If you allow your leader to govern according to the majority faith of the country in it's current state, then you are responsible for allowing that if a Muslim leader got into office. You can combat that now by encouraging people to vote on the topics and not a leaders faith. That includes stuff like gay marriage. It may go against your faith, but if that is the only or the majority of your argument then when the pendulum swings the other way you have also created a government that allows that kind of influence. It may not sit with you well to have to give up some social restrictions that accompany your faith and values, but it will also make it much harder for another's faith and values to be implemented into your social structure.

On a side note, something you said earlier that I forgot to touch on was when you said



According to the most recent reports, the fastest growth rate belongs to a secular point of view.
I'll take your word on the polulation then but it doesn't appear that way from what I see first hand, over here look on any social housing estate and its rife with muslim families with loads of kids Vs the 2-3 child average in all the white christian families I know.

I see your point on the government and ruling of a country, basically we have created a democracy here long ago which means the most votes win and because of that civility it looks like the muslim community will eventually outnumber any other and vote their own in. So in essance we've shot ourselves in the foot by being nice, great!

you see its not even just about child birth rates, when a Pakistani get married, they often get told to marry somebody from Pakistan, not England, indeed they are often threatened and bullied into it. So they bring another muslim over, who again doesn't speak english, they have kids and talk in urdo and often don't want to integrate only expand their own clan, often don't work but expect free medical care, free tuition in the state schools, and guess which pupils take up all the teachers time, yeah those who haven't spoken english all during semester break. The problem is indeed others coming here and not integrating themselves.


You talk about me giving up social restrictions to accomodate others I think in the context that I should compromise to make it easier for others to integrate but why should we weaken our own British values which the isles are founded on if this country and its values are different that the immigrants coming in?

If we closed the borders that would be the end of it. Islam seems like quite an uncompromising religion in the main and I tell you if I go to Saudi, I behave as the Saudi's do, if I come to America I respect their ways I don't start demanding my own. Other countries are nowhere near as tolerant as the Uk and its blatently obvious that people are taking advantage of this and instead of being greateful people are crossing the line in a very organised way.

Its time the politicians got tougher and the country is beggining to show its disgust and I will tell my man Mohamed next time I see him that if he appreciates the life he has here which he openly does then he should support to keep it the way it is.
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Old 06-17-09, 08:27 AM
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The poll has to do with a national average, but in certain areas it's always going to vary.

You didn't shoot yourself in the foot by having a democracy. It's just making sure that democracy is ran in as much of a secular way as possible, keeping faith in the private lives and working on the rest of the issues publicly.
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Old 06-17-09, 08:40 AM
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The poll has to do with a national average, but in certain areas it's always going to vary.

You didn't shoot yourself in the foot by having a democracy. It's just making sure that democracy is ran in as much of a secular way as possible, keeping faith in the private lives and working on the rest of the issues publicly.
I get it yeah, agreed in principle, just think that for certain strict religious types their life is their religion and therefor the secular government would reflect this more and more.

Good points all though Shibs, thanks for the debate
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Old 06-17-09, 08:52 AM
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One last thing to touch on before I go to work... You talked about tolerance or giving up social restrictions (restricting the private lives of others) but as a majority we preach equal rights. What does equal rights me to you and what does it mean to someone else? It's never going to be perfect of course, but we have to look at what should be required to participate in life inside a particular country and what should be left to the freedom of the individual.
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Old 06-18-09, 06:58 PM
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as a muslim myself, i don't believe in anything the guy spoke to you about. you can't sway someone to believe in something when there is no physical proof causing them to change their viewpoint. all religions have semi-tangible proof but it is all up to personal interpretation. i call myself a muslim agnostic. i only associate myself with a religion if need be and i try not to argue about which religion is better. nor do i tell people that what they are doing is right or wrong based on my religion.

ultimately, religion is a set of moral beliefs with a little talk about what could happen if you follow or fail to follow those moral beliefs. there are then a set of interpretations that elaborate on the words of God but like i said, they are elaborations which happened to be written by people.

i have spoken to people who were extremists and claim that the world will soon be 1 religion and that all other followers of other religions are going to hell and i just go along with them because most of the time they get too excited about the topic and go crazy.

and for the record, islam respects and encompasses all religions. islam actually says the Day of Judgment will come with all the prophets (including moses and jesus and about 150,000 others) sit side by side (representing no sort of hierarchy) and pray. so to say islam says all others will die is just ridiculous.
excellent post, can say it about most all religions and how I also see


mr. incredible, you need to note, you're looking at the situation statically, thinking this guys kids and grandkids will see the world thru the same eyes, which is impossible, his point of view was developed where he grew up, and his values are entrenched, his kids are probably more english than muslim, although they know both sets of customs

look at russia and china, in the sixties and seventies it was general knowledge they would be capitalist kiilling communists forever, and what are they like now, well it's forty years late, two complete new generations have been born, and they love capitalism, something about freedom and getting paid more if you work hard and at what you love rather than what you are told seems for some odd reasoon to appeal to all people
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Old 06-19-09, 02:37 AM
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excellent post, can say it about most all religions and how I also see


mr. incredible, you need to note, you're looking at the situation statically, thinking this guys kids and grandkids will see the world thru the same eyes, which is impossible, his point of view was developed where he grew up, and his values are entrenched, his kids are probably more english than muslim, although they know both sets of customs

look at russia and china, in the sixties and seventies it was general knowledge they would be capitalist kiilling communists forever, and what are they like now, well it's forty years late, two complete new generations have been born, and they love capitalism, something about freedom and getting paid more if you work hard and at what you love rather than what you are told seems for some odd reasoon to appeal to all people
quite a soothing point of view, well put, clearly some don't fitwith what your saying though, 9/11 they didn't see it your way, bali bombers didn't, tube bomers in London didn't, they were muslim before they were any nationality and wern't concerned with material worth, I see where your coming from but it just seems that islam produces more extreemists than any and while we can all say what should be the case, it often isn't in the muslim mindset, not that they're all the same but less of them than any other religion seem to want to integrate more convert others
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Old 06-19-09, 04:18 AM
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quite a soothing point of view, well put, clearly some don't fitwith what your saying though, 9/11 they didn't see it your way, bali bombers didn't, tube bomers in London didn't, they were muslim before they were any nationality and wern't concerned with material worth, I see where your coming from but it just seems that islam produces more extreemists than any and while we can all say what should be the case, it often isn't in the muslim mindset, not that they're all the same but less of them than any other religion seem to want to integrate more convert others
There is a book by Sam Harris where he discussing this very well.

Amazon.com: The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason: Sam Harris: Books
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Old 06-19-09, 04:57 AM
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Islam does not produce extremists. Total friggin nut jobs do, and these ones happen to come from the most impoverished place on the planet where human beings are still viewed as assets to own like slaves, these nut jobs are just total control freaks, they're mind set is still based on idea's of 600 years ago where the more kids you have the richer you are cause they can work in the fields, and the only way to keep them down on the farm is thru mind control techniques.

The world generally belives now assets, machines, are worth more and easier to control and produce more for a higher standard of living of all.

Look at what is going on in Iran, gosh, we thought they all wanted the nuke to destroy when it turns out they just want good jobs, the internet, and blue jeans, and too have more ses, lol.

the bottom line is there will always be nut jobs everywhere, as there always have been, that's life

personally i don't see much difference between 9-11 or katrina, as a matter of fact the tsunami in malaysia killed 200k people, and actually can be prevented, yet, where is the outrage over that, bad things happen
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Old 06-19-09, 05:21 AM
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personally i don't see much difference between 9-11 or katrina, as a matter of fact the tsunami in malaysia killed 200k people, and actually can be prevented, yet, where is the outrage over that, bad things happen
Natural disaster vs act of terrorism... Katrina: we could build better levees but people also choose to live there knowing the anomalies are possible. Tsunami: I'm not sure how a lot of it could have been prevented didn't follow it much, but it's just about containing the water. 9/11: What ever protections and preventions you put in place, Muslim extremists will make adjustments. I need a lot more explanation to follow how you feel about this.
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