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Old 11-06-17, 09:51 PM
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Again. It's about comparing to the Earth's natural warming and cooling cycles. Who's to say some warming periods are slightly more excelirated than others? Can science say without a shadow of a doubt how fast the Earth went through it's natural warming cycle during the Jurassic period?

The science is based on certain assumptions. More of an educated guess.
No, no, no! Scientists can look at data using ice cores on long term global warming and cooling trends, as well as short term (since industrial revolution) trends on top of it. They have an excellent idea of how much man-made contributions are. People who claim they don't either have a tenuous grasp of science or are wilful climate deniers.

And there is no such thing as without a shadow of a doubt. Even Einstein can be proven wrong tomorrow if there's a piece of data that contradicts his theory. To quote one of my favorite scientiests Stephen Jay Gould, in science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' But the climate data is so overwhelming that it can be considered as fact.
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Old 11-06-17, 09:53 PM
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Most of those gun deaths are suicide or gang related. They simply use the easiest tool for the job. If not guns it would be knives etc..

Fact is, you are far more likely to be injured or killed on the road then you are by a gun.
What about suicides? It would seem logical to at least study the data to see what can be done to reduce that number.
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Old 11-06-17, 10:08 PM
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What about suicides? It would seem logical to at least study the data to see what can be done to reduce that number.
If you want to kill yourself you can do it in any number of ways. Guns again are just a tool. The real question should be why so many people want to kill themselves. This I'm sure is already being studied.
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Old 11-06-17, 10:10 PM
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No, no, no! Scientists can look at data using ice cores on long term global warming and cooling trends, as well as short term (since industrial revolution) trends on top of it. They have an excellent idea of how much man-made contributions are. People who claim they don't either have a tenuous grasp of science or are wilful climate deniers.

And there is no such thing as without a shadow of a doubt. Even Einstein can be proven wrong tomorrow if there's a piece of data that contradicts his theory. To quote one of my favorite scientiests Stephen Jay Gould, in science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' But the climate data is so overwhelming that it can be considered as fact.
Yes yes yes. It's an educated guess. We don't have a crystal clear picture. We know we are contributing to global warming but all we have are rough estimates.
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Old 11-06-17, 10:19 PM
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Scrum my main point in bringing up climate change is that even with data that clear America is still split. Our President doesn't even acknowledge it. It's been politicized.

This is exactly what will happen with gun research. Call me pessimistic but it's a fact. It will be politicized and used against the other side whatever the results.
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Old 11-06-17, 10:30 PM
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Yes yes yes. It's an educated guess. We don't have a crystal clear picture. We know we are contributing to global warming but all we have are rough estimates.
Ok, how do I put this.

Let me just be polite and say that you are incorrect.

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Old 11-06-17, 10:32 PM
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Ok, how do I put this.

Let me just be polite and say that you are incorrect.

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Yea alright, it's besides the point anyway. We can agree on climate change and the fact that humans have an impact on it. I brought it up for a reason which I explained above.
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Old 11-07-17, 04:18 AM
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The total number of people killed in a mass shooting averages out to about 100 people on a bad year.

Total amount of people killed by a drunk driver each year averages out to roughly 15,000 people.

Where is the outrage scrum? Where are the studies? Why aren't you up in arms (pun ha) about drunk drivers?

This Texas shooting was a failure by the government to enforce laws that were already in place to prevent this guy from getting a gun.
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Old 11-07-17, 05:10 AM
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By the way, firearm deaths per 100,000 is exactly the same as motor vehicle deaths in the US. That's how big a public health concern firearm deaths are. Yet we choose to do nothing other than offer "thoughts and prayers." Think about how much science research has gone into and is going into reducing road deaths - safety features on cars, tire research, road engineering, lighting, snow/ice control, etc. That's what we need to be doing on the gun side as well.


Here are the stats (2014 data):



Here is the link to the data in case you want to dig further.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf
And why aren't planned parent hood government funded abortions listed there? Oh...Wait...Because that number almost TRIPPLES PER YEAR. So...The Democrats fight to say the big bad gun kills too many. If their concern is innocents loosing their life.why do the fund such a program? Sorry...Too hyprocital for me. Yet they froth at the mouth to take lawful gun owners rights away....But your OK with this?
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Old 11-07-17, 06:50 AM
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The U.S. Air Force didn’t report Texas church shooter Devin Kelley’s domestic violence conviction to the FBI -- even though it was required by the Pentagon -- leaving the door open for Kelley to buy weapons, officials said on Monday.

Kelley’s conviction wasn’t submitted to the FBI’s Criminal Justice Investigation Services Division for inclusion in the National Criminal Information Center database that is used to conduct background checks on would-be gun purchasers, Air Force spokesperson Ann Stefanek said.

The Holloman Air Force Base Office of Special Investigations -- the base where Kelley was stationed -- was supposed to enter his information into the database, according to a statement released Monday night by the Air Force.

At issue is the Lautenberg Amendment, enacted by Congress in 1996. The federal law was designed to prohibit people convicted of domestic violence from buying or possessing a firearm regardless of whether the crime was a felony or a misdemeanor.

The Air Force “has launched a review of how the Service handled the criminal records of former Airman” Kelley, Stefanek said in the statement. The statement also noted the Air Force will investigate all of its databases “to ensure records in other cases have been reported correctly.”

The Air Force said it's asked the Pentagon Inspector General to "review records and procedures across the Department of Defense."
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Old 11-07-17, 07:35 AM
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What about suicides? It would seem logical to at least study the data to see what can be done to reduce that number.
Provide a hypothesis that should be studied regarding gun violence (bullshit media term, violence is violence)
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Old 11-07-17, 08:20 AM
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Or lets say this..since a lawful scientific study will provide the data needed to fix the issue..This is about saving lives and apparently the government to pay for it. I suggest take away all federal funding for abortions except in cases of rape or incest. use that money for the study..there will be more then enough to pay for it! that way we can save lives in two ways..The left wing of the government will be the heros!
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Old 11-07-17, 09:48 AM
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The total number of people killed in a mass shooting averages out to about 100 people on a bad year.

Total amount of people killed by a drunk driver each year averages out to roughly 15,000 people.

Where is the outrage scrum? Where are the studies? Why aren't you up in arms (pun ha) about drunk drivers?

This Texas shooting was a failure by the government to enforce laws that were already in place to prevent this guy from getting a gun.
A lot of the things we have today (seat belts, BAC limits, speed limits, road lighting strategies, etc) are a direct result of research performed on driving deaths. Can we do more? Of course, which is why driving related studies continue to exist.

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Old 11-07-17, 09:49 AM
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Or lets say this..since a lawful scientific study will provide the data needed to fix the issue..This is about saving lives and apparently the government to pay for it. I suggest take away all federal funding for abortions except in cases of rape or incest. use that money for the study..there will be more then enough to pay for it! that way we can save lives in two ways..The left wing of the government will be the heros!
Nice red herring, but there is no Federal funding for abortions. That restriction already exists.

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Old 11-07-17, 09:52 AM
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Provide a hypothesis that should be studied regarding gun violence (bullshit media term, violence is violence)
Certain specific kinds of warning signs may require an additional kind of cooling off period, since suicide impulses tend to have a short half life. If we knew precisely what they are, then there can be something targeted without inconveniencing everyone.

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Old 11-07-17, 09:53 AM
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Nice red herring, but there is no Federal funding for abortions. That restriction already exists.

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planed parenthood does scrum
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Old 11-07-17, 09:55 AM
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Certain specific kinds of warning signs may require an additional kind of cooling off period, since suicide impulses tend to have a short half life. If we knew precisely what they are, then there can be something targeted without inconveniencing everyone.

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So are you saying since we don't know those answers..its ok to inconvenience everyone until we do? I hope not.
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Old 11-07-17, 09:58 AM
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planed parenthood does scrum
Nope. They may provide services but laws already exist that say that they cannot use federal dollars to provide that service.

Regardless, I'm not sure why you are making this a us vs then issue. Is a scientific analysis of epidemiological data really a partisan thing?

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Old 11-07-17, 10:00 AM
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So are you saying since we don't know those answers..its ok to inconvenience everyone until we do? I hope not.
I'm not saying that. We know nothing now. Why don't we let the CDC do the research? That way, if there is something targeted that the science supports, we can do that INSTEAD of anything blanket. Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled, because if I was a responsible gun owner, I'd be most interested in ways to determine how to keep guns out of hands of those who would give me a bad name.

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Old 11-07-17, 10:04 AM
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Really..then who gives funding for all the abortions from Planned parenthood...a government run program? please explain..

I'm sure its not private donations like the NRA is..

I don't have a problem with science, but science is and can be flawed like everything else in the world scrum..you have to admit that. data can be swayed..Men do it.. its been done to promote a cause. Just like laws are supposed to work..The Government imposed a law..this nut never should of gotten the guns..but the Government FAILED to uphold the law by not entering him into the data. PRIME example. Yet..we want more laws? The ones we have aren't enforced..look at Chicago..known felons back on the street after committing gun crimes...WHY?
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Old 11-07-17, 10:06 AM
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I'm not saying that. We know nothing now. Why don't we let the CDC do the research? That way, if there is something targeted that the science supports, we can do that INSTEAD of anything blanket. Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled, because if I was a responsible gun owner, I'd be most interested in ways to determine how to keep guns out of hands of those who would give me a bad name.

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there is a way scrum...ENFORCE existing laws to the maximum penalties..lets just try it for a while instead of letting them off easy..
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Old 11-07-17, 10:08 AM
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there is a way scrum...ENFORCE existing laws to the maximum penalties..lets just try it for a while instead of letting them off easy..
I guess I don't understand why it's an either or thing. Yes, enforce existing laws, no question. But our explicit law to ban federal funding of gun violence research is a bit hypocritical.

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Old 11-07-17, 10:09 AM
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A lot of the things we have today (seat belts, BAC limits, speed limits, road lighting strategies, etc) are a direct result of research performed on driving deaths. Can we do more? Of course, which is why driving related studies continue to exist.

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Drunk driving fatalities has been pretty steady since 2001, so really no strides have been made in studying people breaking laws. Drunk driving is too profitable to ever be dealt with.

The shooting was made possible due to current laws not being followed by the military and law enforcement.

Plenty of gun laws on the books. Too many alphabet agencies not following the rules. So again, fuck the government.
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Old 11-07-17, 10:16 AM
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Drunk driving fatalities has been pretty steady since 2001, so really no strides have been made in studying people breaking laws. Drunk driving is too profitable to ever be dealt with.

The shooting was made possible due to current laws not being followed by the military and law enforcement.
I'm not suggesting that research would have prevented this incident. I'm talking about gun related injuries and deaths in general.

Our gun related deaths are WAY outside the norms of other Western democracies, even ones with large gun ownership like Finland. Shouldn't we be asking why, and seeing what we can do about it?

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Old 11-07-17, 10:28 AM
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A lot of the things we have today (seat belts, BAC limits, speed limits, road lighting strategies, etc) are a direct result of research performed on driving deaths. Can we do more? Of course, which is why driving related studies continue to exist.

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We have laws in place for guns as well scrum. If the law had worked in this Texas case he would not have been able to purchase those guns.
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Old 11-07-17, 10:30 AM
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Certain specific kinds of warning signs may require an additional kind of cooling off period, since suicide impulses tend to have a short half life. If we knew precisely what they are, then there can be something targeted without inconveniencing everyone.

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Which is why I don't really have an issue with the California 10 day cooling off period.
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Old 11-07-17, 10:42 AM
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We have laws in place for guns as well scrum. If the law had worked in this Texas case he would not have been able to purchase those guns.
Again, I am not talking specifically about this case. This is the what gun related deaths look like the US vs. other developed countries. Shouldn't we be be researching how to close this gap? Are there scientific data driven things we can do?



Frankly, the response of gun owners to this is the mystifying thing.
There's probably material for a psychology PhD or two right there, but I digress.
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Old 11-07-17, 11:01 AM
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Your also implying that we don't want a study done..has anyone said that? NO..yet you imply that we have?
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Old 11-07-17, 11:06 AM
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Your also implying that we don't want a study done..has anyone said that? NO..yet you imply that we have?
Well, you said it, not me. I tried to draw a distinction between the lobbying of the NRA and gun owners but you and Bouncer kept insisting that the NRA is not an faceless entity but represents the will of the people, at least the gun owners. Well, maybe you guys should tell Congress to remove the law prohibiting federal research on gun related deaths and injuries.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:10 AM
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i said I am all for studies as long as they are done with out bias or swayed in any way by politics and big money.

i also said that regardless of the outcome of the study, much like climate change studies, you will still have this divisive republican vs democrat issue. it will absolutely be politicized.
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Old 11-07-17, 11:13 AM
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Show me where I said no studies..... show me...
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Old 11-07-17, 11:19 AM
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regarding that chart you posted scrum.

we are a nation founded with guns. we would still be flying the British flag if we had your attitude about guns. a nation where civilians have no weapons is a nation at the mercy of their government. there is a reason dictator regimes do not allow any sort of weapon ownership by their people.

imagine if the jews had the gun culture we had when they were being rounded up by the nazis. Things might have turned out a little different. They certainly would have made the nazis job much harder. they were completely defenseless.

Scrum, the day you are sitting in your living room and a guy smashes through your window with a gun aimed at your family you would finally understand. In that brief moment, you would wish you had a gun, you would be pro gun. Instead, you just hope nothing like that ever happens. The world is full of fucking nuts bro, it's not crazy to assume something like that could happen to you. People always seem to think things like that "happen to someone else"..
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Old 11-07-17, 11:20 AM
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Show me where I said no studies..... show me...
You said the NRA is not an entity but merely the people of the country. Well, people of the country, there are folks in Congress acting in your name, with other folks that call themselves the NRA acting on your behalf whispering in their ear, who have enacted laws to that effect. So, tell your congressperson to repeal that law.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:23 AM
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Again show me where I said no studies..you cant..because I didn't.. Your taking the NRAs stance and making their words mine.. Like bouncer said..the NRA is the best defense we have against the anti gun agenda in this country. That don't mean I am in lock step with every thing they say or do..to imply that is your choice..but not my words..
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Old 11-07-17, 11:27 AM
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Again show me where I said no studies..you cant..because I didn't.. Your taking the NRAs stance and making their words mine.. Like bouncer said..the NRA is the best defense we have against the anti gun agenda in this country. That don't mean I am in lock step with every thing they say or do..to imply that is your choice..but not my words..
Wait, wait, wait.... You can't have it both ways.

Yesterday, I gave you an out by saying that the NRA lobbying is perhaps not in the best interest of it's members, at least those who are interested in understanding how to reduce gun related deaths. YOU were the one who said that there is no "NRA" as some independent thing or person, but it merely represents the wishes of the people.

You can't have it both ways, on the one hand insisting that the NRA is the people, and then turning around and saying that you are not responsible for what it does.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:34 AM
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Wait, wait, wait.... You can't have it both ways.

Yesterday, I gave you an out by saying that the NRA lobbying is perhaps not in the best interest of it's members, at least those who are interested in understanding how to reduce gun related deaths. YOU were the one who said that there is no "NRA" as some independent thing or person, but it merely represents the wishes of the people.

You can't have it both ways, on the one hand insisting that the NRA is the people, and then turning around and saying that you are not responsible for what it does.

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lol.

without the people the NRA would not exist.

BUT. it has leaders just like any organization. just because we don't always agree with those leaders doesn't mean we don't support the bigger picture for why they exist in the first place.
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Old 11-07-17, 11:34 AM
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regarding that chart you posted scrum.

we are a nation founded with guns. we would still be flying the British flag if we had your attitude about guns. a nation where civilians have no weapons is a nation at the mercy of their government. there is a reason dictator regimes do not allow any sort of weapon ownership by their people.

imagine if the jews had the gun culture we had when they were being rounded up by the nazis. Things might have turned out a little different. They certainly would have made the nazis job much harder. they were completely defenseless.

Scrum, the day you are sitting in your living room and a guy smashes through your window with a gun aimed at your family you would finally understand. In that brief moment, you would wish you had a gun, you would be pro gun. Instead, you just hope nothing like that ever happens. The world is full of fucking nuts bro, it's not crazy to assume something like that could happen to you. People always seem to think things like that "happen to someone else"..
So what you are saying is that the reason we have more than 5X greater gun related homicides than any other country is that it's in our blood and there's nothing we can do about it. Even if say 25% or 50% is avoidable and not just Americans being Americans, we don't need to worry about it.
Well, if that's the case, we should quit worrying about gun violence then. It's just who we are, just how we roll.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:35 AM
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lol.

without the people the people the NRA would not exist.

BUT. it has leaders just like any organization. just because we don't always agree with those leaders doesn't mean we don't support the bigger picture for why they exist in the first place.
I'm pointing out that your leaders are doing the wrong thing in your name. Tell them to not block CDC research into what's unquestionably a serious public health crisis.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:36 AM
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gave me an out...LMFAO your a trip dude...LOLOLOLO

So in your deeply educated mind you hold anyone who believes in any cause to be into the entire program 100% but cant have a slightly differing view? Or to not agree with some of the standards by knowing its for the greater good overall, support it because most of what they do is in that persons opnion right? this should be good..
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Old 11-07-17, 11:38 AM
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I'm pointing out that your leaders are doing the wrong thing in your name. Tell them to not block CDC research into what's unquestionably a serious public health crisis.

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So none of the people you call leaders of anything you believe in have ever done anything you didn't agree with...REALLY
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Old 11-07-17, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by lipripper View Post
gave me an out...LMFAO your a trip dude...LOLOLOLO

So in your deeply educated mind you hold anyone who believes in any cause to be into the entire program 100% but cant have a slightly differing view? Or to not agree with some of the standards by knowing its for the greater good overall, support it because most of what they do is in that persons opnion right? this should be good..
Ad hominem. My education or lack of it has nothing to do with this. If people who purport to represent my interests are doing the wrong thing, I'll be talking to them, whether it's the National Parks Federation or the Sierra Club or whoever. I'm not questioning the raison d'etre for the NRA. I'm merely asking that responsible gun owners should understand what the NRA leadership is doing on their behalf.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:41 AM
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So what you are saying is that the reason we have more than 5X greater gun related homicides than any other country is that it's in our blood and there's nothing we can do about it. Even if say 25% or 50% is avoidable and not just Americans being Americans, we don't need to worry about it.
Well, if that's the case, we should quit worrying about gun violence then. It's just who we are, just how we roll.

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most gun death is by suicide. its a tool they use to commit suicide. if guns were not available they could swallow a bottle of pills, they could slit their wrists, they could hang themselves etc..

we are a gun culture. the "wild west" mentality is still very much alive in america. So yes, in a way that is who we are.

with all that said, 99.9% of legal gun owners are good law abiding people.
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Old 11-07-17, 11:41 AM
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So none of the people you call leaders of anything you believe in have ever done anything you didn't agree with...REALLY
Not sure why are are taking this personally. I'm not talking specifically to you although to borrow Rado's phrase, if the shoe fits....

So you agree that we should be funding the CDC then and you disagree with the head honchos in the NRA?

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Old 11-07-17, 11:42 AM
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lol.

without the people the NRA would not exist.

BUT. it has leaders just like any organization. just because we don't always agree with those leaders doesn't mean we don't support the bigger picture for why they exist in the first place.
So you are agreeing then that we should be funding CDC research. Good.

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Old 11-07-17, 11:45 AM
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So you are agreeing then that we should be funding CDC research. Good.

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would you be okay with the idea of the NRA funding that research? i mean scientists cannot be swayed according to you..
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Old 11-07-17, 11:45 AM
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Not sure why are are taking this personally. I'm not talking specifically to you although to borrow Rado's phrase, if the shoe fits....

So you agree that we should be funding the CDC then and you disagree with the head honchos in the NRA?

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Not taking anything personal at all. you tried to say they were MY words that were spoken..they weren't.. pretty simple really.
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Old 11-07-17, 11:47 AM
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Not sure why are are taking this personally. I'm not talking specifically to you although to borrow Rado's phrase, if the shoe fits....

So you agree that we should be funding the CDC then and you disagree with the head honchos in the NRA?

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Do you disagree with any of the ideas or opinions of those in charge of things you believe in?
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Old 11-07-17, 11:53 AM
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would you be okay with the idea of the NRA funding that research? i mean scientists cannot be swayed according to you..
Are you seriously suggesting that Congress funding research is equivalent to a private entity funding research?

But to answer the question, if don't at the CDC, yes. Because it is a federal organization, all the data is public and can be viewed by everyone, peer reviewed, etc. There's nothing to be afraid if the science is done openly.

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Old 11-07-17, 12:02 PM
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Are you seriously suggesting that Congress funding research is equivalent to a private entity funding research?

But to answer the question, if don't at the CDC, yes. Because it is a federal organization, all the data is public and can be viewed by everyone, peer reviewed, etc. There's nothing to be afraid if the science is done openly.

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i'm not sure something so divisive and political could ever be researched without any bias whatsoever. EVERYONE has a strong opinion on this issue and there is big money and politicians on both sides that have much to gain or lose.

again, i have no issue with research. lets do it. but i have my doubts about how it could be done with this particular hot button issue. if all the scientists are democrats it will be called into question. That's just a fact.

you have so much trust in "federal organizations" as if they can't be bought or swayed. You act like there has never been corruption on the federal level. lol
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Old 11-07-17, 12:41 PM
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Texas Rangers and FBI just said they cannot get into the guys phone due to it's security features. In these type of cases there needs to be a quick way that apple or google can send some sort of code to the authorities upon request that opens the phone.

But apple or google should never give the authorities a backdoor key that allows them to open any and all phones. It needs to be on a case by case bases. This would meet the criteria for a phone that needs to be opened asap.
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