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**Skyefire** · 04-09-04, 03:32 AM

For nice clean gains
600mg Testosterone Cypionate weeks 1-14
400mg Boldenolone Undecylenate weeks 1-12

For bulking
600mg Testosterone Cypionate weeks 1-12
400mg Nandrolone Decanoate weeks 1-10
10mg Methandrostenolone (Dbol) 3x ed weeks 1-5

For both of these the PCT is the same. Start 3 weeks after the last shot and use Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex) 40mg ed for 2 weeks and then 20mg ed for another two weeks. 10mg ed can be ran throughout the cycle to reduce bloating or ensure against gyno. The timings were done assuming a half-life of 12 days for the Cypionate, 14days for the Undecylenate, and 15 days for the Decanoate. Other might change this around a little or assume different half-lives for the depots.

**babylon** · 04-09-04, 04:05 AM

how about if someone wanted to go about doing the same thing without using needles,and still being safe

**psyko1** · 04-09-04, 04:11 AM

if you mean strength and size, eat to grow, and creatine. just try to eat as clean as you can.

**Skyefire** · 04-09-04, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by babylon
how about if someone wanted to go about doing the same thing without using needles,and still being safe

Well if your talking about gear then well you don't really. There are some effective oral only cycles but none are going to be as safe or effective as the ones above. Almost all gear without exception works better when combined with something else, which is exactly what you DON'T want to do with orals because of the liver toxicity issues. This severely limits what you can do with orals. A lot of people run Dbol and Var together or ramping one up and the other down, but again there is only so much you can take of it.

The only oral only cycle I like at all is a dbol only (talk to the hand). (Note: this works much better with test or Deca, preferable both and they are easy to take). For this to work you need a couple of things. First BE SURE YOUR READY TO USE GEAR. Second, YOU CAN'T SKIP THINGS JUST BECAUSE YOU�RE DOING AN ORAL ONLY CYCLE. This includes full PCT, anti E throughout the cycle and a clean high cal diet.

Example cycle (cheap version)
30 to 50mg Dbol ed depending on your tolerance weeks 1 - 6
Nolvadex 10mg ed 1 - 6 weeks
ldex .25 mg ed weeks 1 - 6 (I prefer Proviron 50mg ed but cost a lot more)
PCT is Nolvadex 40mg ed for 2 weeks then 20mg for 2 weeks or your prefernce

Please note that if you run the above your WILL NOT see the ledgonary Dbol gains. Most of those gains are estrogen meditated, i.e. water. If you run the above you aren't going to hold much water. You also will not lose the gains after the cycle, as the gains from this cycle will be real muscle.

Supplement to add while on this cycle
ALA
Milk Thistle
Policosanol
Potassium
Magnesium
Liv52

**GearTripper** · 04-09-04, 05:15 AM

if the stats you posted above are true, then you have great possibilities natural still. focus on training "clean" for a few more years. concentrate on getting the most out of your diet. i would heavily advise AGAINST taking any form of AS at this point in time in your life. when you're ready, start with a simple TEST only cycle for 400mg/wk for 10 weeks. you'll see great gains on that alone. don't waste your time doing a dbol only cycle, as it's like a 90% water gain and will all go away most likely after the cycle.

**GearTripper** · 04-09-04, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by Skyefire

Example cycle (cheap version)
30 to 50mg Dbol ed depending on your tolerance weeks 1 - 6
Nolvadex 10mg ed 1 - 6 weeks
ldex .25 mg ed weeks 1 - 6 (I prefer Proviron 50mg ed but cost a lot more)
PCT is Nolvadex 40mg ed for 2 weeks then 20mg for 2 weeks or your prefernce

Please note that if you run the above your WILL NOT see the ledgonary Dbol gains. Most of those gains are estrogen meditated, i.e. water. If you run the above you aren't going to hold much water. You also will not lose the gains after the cycle, as the gains from this cycle will be real muscle.

i'm just curious as to why you think the posted cycle won't be mostly water and why he wouldn't loose the gains because it will be "real muscle"? i just don't see how taking Ndex and Ldex will turn dbol gains into "real muscle"?

**Stonecold54** · 04-09-04, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by GearTripper
i'm just curious as to why you think the posted cycle won't be mostly water and why he wouldn't loose the gains because it will be "real muscle"? i just don't see how taking Ndex and Ldex will turn dbol gains into "real muscle"?

I think he is just trying to say that while on the ldex there will be minimal water retention so that most if not all the gains that will be seen will be in the lean mass category (not all muscle but probably lean mass).

**lestatgear** · 04-09-04, 09:06 AM

At your age and stats, I would agree that you might want to wait awhile before starting your first cycle. However, if you really have your mind set, something like test cyp 400mg/week and Deca 400 mg/week would yield decent gains. Unfortunately, if you really want to make any decent gains, and keep as much as possible, needles are part of the game. Do you someone that you could trust that would be willing to administer the injections?

**the_inkslinger** · 04-09-04, 09:20 AM

wait a year or 2 at least man... drop your BF to around 12..lower if possible.. your body isa walking ball of test right now at that age ... you can technically grow until youre 21. Go with the creatine method for now. Eat, sleep, eat ...train hard..eat.. :-) im sure the bros here can help with with a good diet.

**Chris** · 04-09-04, 10:56 AM

Hey thanks guys. I was just curious. I don't think I could do it, seeing as how it might be hard to find a source and all. I was just curious as to what might be good, for research pruposes.

Yes, Geartripper, I would not lie. I weighed myself before I posted and had my b/f checked on wednesday. I assume it could have flux since then, and as for my height, I might be 5' 9 1/2" if it makes that much of a difference.

Intimid8or3, why do you say to stay away from anabolics as long as possible? Have you had any trouble with them?

Thanks for all the help.
Chris

**Chris** · 04-09-04, 01:08 PM

Thanks Intimid8tor. I was worried that might happen to me, wanting to cycle again and shit. Thanks for the advanced warning. I guess I'll just keep doing research and asking questiosn.

Chris

**ROCKETW19** · 04-09-04, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Chris
Thanks Intimid8tor. I was worried that might happen to me, wanting to cycle again and shit. Thanks for the advanced warning. I guess I'll just keep doing research and asking questiosn.

Chris

best advise was your own !

**Skyefire** · 04-09-04, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by GearTripper
i'm just curious as to why you think the posted cycle won't be mostly water and why he wouldn't loose the gains because it will be "real muscle"? i just don't see how taking Ndex and Ldex will turn dbol gains into "real muscle"?

As I mentioned you will not see the massive qick gains with dbol if you run the stong anti e from the start. If your not retaining the water then you will not have it to lose. I can tell you from personal Nolvadex 10mg ed exp that 80mg prop and 50mg Dbol ed with 50 Proviron will keep you dry as a bone.

here was another post I did on it if your interested
http://www.anabolic-alchemy.com/show...=&threadid=459

**the_inkslinger** · 04-10-04, 01:14 AM

hey chris..

what everyones telling you is so true... iwas one of those people who were tryingto stick with the safer AS... "ill just do it one time" my next cycle will be my 3rd..

but this one is my last one... for sure..:D :D ;)

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