When to start Nolva?

[jaypee]

How long after the last shot in a cycle should I wait to start taking Nolva? I was told 3 weeks, which seems right to me only for one reason. When I did my last cycle (and didn't do anything after) I was still feeling like I was "on" for a month after I finished up. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


jaypee

[r_deese]

3 weeks is pretty standard unless you feel gyno coming on, then start it immediately

[shortz]

It is all dependant on your drugs and esters. For a long ester, 2-3 weeks is standard (cyp, enanthate, deca/Eq). If using tren and prop or other very short acting drugs, then you want to start the day after your last dose.

[LuvMuhRoids]

Anadrol/Anapolan: 24 hours after last administration
Deca: 21 days after last injection
Dianabol: 24 hours after last administration
Equipoise: 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 14 days after last injection
Sustanon: 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate: 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate: 14 days after last injection
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension: 24 hours after last administration
Winstrol: 24 hours after last administration

[shortz]

Originally posted by LuvMuhRoids
Anadrol/Anapolan: 24 hours after last administration
Deca: 21 days after last injection
Dianabol: 24 hours after last administration
Equipoise: 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 14 days after last injection
Sustanon: 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate: 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate: 14 days after last injection
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension: 24 hours after last administration
Winstrol: 24 hours after last administration

Excellent list to have around. I always recommend with short acting drugs to start on the day after the last dose. This list says 3 days for tren. I can't say I disagree, but also would say that even if you started the day after, I'm not sure it would be a big deal.

[Skyefire]

SWALES PCT protocol(taken for a post at AM by theprolangtum)
Origional link used: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/show...swales+protocol

Since this is the current hot topic, I figured I would post this:



Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

[LuvMuhRoids]

I've read swales pct before and I disagree with his opinion. The novla/clomid is a neccessity in PCT as I will explain.

Nolva is the dominating SERM in pct. Both nolva and clomid are SERMS but tissue specific or selective to certain areas. The case of clomid v nolva is clomid is a weak anti-estrogen blocker as opposed to nolvadex but clomid is needed to stimulate LH levels back to normal thus it's specific use. Nolvadex is selective in this aspect that it's main purpose as studies show is a weak estrogen and binds to receptors during PCT.

Nolvadex is needed for what I call the estrogen back lash one will recieve during the off time right after a cycle. When androgen levels drop estrogen flushs the receptors and nolvadex is needed. To not hinder gains or keep them longer, it is suggestable to restore the balance as quick as possible. Clomid is suggestable for this even though clomid is an anti-estrogen as well this is shown to be not it's selection.

To conclude, both SERMS are neccessary for proper restoration and serve both purposes needed in PCT. One, clomid to restore LH levels back to normal. Two, nolvadex to act as the anti-estrogen and block the flush.

I would like to add also this link to another article I have written that explains more in detail the case of clomid and nolvadex.

http://www.bigdogbodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=99

LMR


He's incorrect on his opinion about he exclusion of L-dex in PCT IMO.Using an AI, not only helps in stimulating LH, but also reduces the need fo binding prevention in the mammery, so Nolva is diverted to the suprapituitary more so than it would normally be.
The lipid concern is minimal. L-dex supresses estrogen in a person with normal levels of estrogen at about 85%. This is with full dose(1mg). We are individuals with supraphysiologial levels of estrogen, taking a 1/4 of the dose used in regualr practice.If a person has adverse effects to HDL from L-dex anyhow, the SERMs act as an agonist for liver and bone ER's, so they help in alleviating the lipid effect

I do agree with his recommendation for HCG use though

Pheedno

[LuvMuhRoids]

Tren acetate reaches a saturation period that lasts up to 72 hours despite it's fast acting ester. I believe this the reason for PCT start time 3 days after the saturation period has lowered and the androgen levels are low enough to not hinder nolva/clomid therapy.

Originally posted by shortz
Excellent list to have around. I always recommend with short acting drugs to start on the day after the last dose. This list says 3 days for tren. I can't say I disagree, but also would say that even if you started the day after, I'm not sure it would be a big deal.

[shortz]

Swale's paragraph that was posted was not intended to be used as PCT. The excert listed above was only for Hcg use. He has other methods for PCT too and this is not it. Let's not twist up his thoughts.