How about this one?

[sreisin547]

week 1-4 dbol 40mg/day
week 1-12 deca 300mg/wk
week 1-12 eq 300mg/wk
week 1-12 proviron 50mg/day
week 8-12 winny 50mg/day

of course nolva and letro throughout.

Looking for quality gains without too much bloat. I have gotten VERY good results from using deca and eq together in the past.
So, how's it look?

[ROCKETW19]

i would sub the deca for test at 400-500mgs. and up the EQ to 400. and with the provrion i dont think you will need nolva or letro unless you are prone to gyno.

[sreisin547]

I am prone to gyno, that's why I was including the nolva and letro...is it overkill?
I forgot, I actually have some prop left over I could add, but was thinking of going with enan instead to reduce my number of injects

[ROCKETW19]

i would use just 1 nolva or letro. letro would be my choice if gyno starts you can always throw in the nolva.

[Bouncer]

no test? test should be a base. all the other things come second. its like having a cheese steak without the steak.

[ROCKETW19]

Originally posted by THE BOUNCER
no test? test should be a base. all the other things come second. its like having a cheese steak without the steak.

i agree also you should always use test. but the only reason i say this is cuzz thats what i have been told for years. i never asked why kinda just brain washed me. so i agree but could you explain why test should be the base.

[sreisin547]

oh yeah!! I have prop, but was thinking of getting enan instead to reduce my number of shots

[drgoodbody]

1) Eq and deca produce similar results, but I prefer EQ, less negative side effects

2) Test should be there, for libido and results

3) EQ aromatizes very little, Deca doesn't aromatize at all, winny doesn't aromatize, dbol does aromatize. In your proposed cycle you really only need and anti-aromatase for the period when you're using the dbol. Anti-e's won't help at all with the other drugs.

I would change the cycle to something like this:

week 1-4 dbol 40mg/day
week 1-12 test-e 400mg/wk
week 1-12 eq 400mg/wk
week 1-12 proviron 25mg/day
week 8-12 winny 50mg/day

I assume the proviron is to lower SHBG levels, 25mg Ed should do it for you, I think 50mg is overkill. If it was for libido, the test will do that for you now. Personally I'm not a big proviron fan.

During this cycle I'd use 2.5mg ED or EOD of letrozole, and have nolvadex on hand if you feel any gyno side effects.

good luck,

DrG

[JUICE]

Originally posted by sreisin547
oh yeah!! I have prop, but was thinking of getting enan instead to reduce my number of shots

good choice bro. Drop the deca and use test-e all the way for 12 weeks for 500mgs. :D

[spidey]

Originally posted by drgoodbody
1) Eq and deca produce similar results, but I prefer EQ, less negative side effects

2) Test should be there, for libido and results

3) EQ aromatizes very little, Deca doesn't aromatize at all, winny doesn't aromatize, dbol does aromatize. In your proposed cycle you really only need and anti-aromatase for the period when you're using the dbol. Anti-e's won't help at all with the other drugs.

I would change the cycle to something like this:

week 1-4 dbol 40mg/day
week 1-12 test-e 400mg/wk
week 1-12 eq 400mg/wk
week 1-12 proviron 25mg/day
week 8-12 winny 50mg/day

I assume the proviron is to lower SHBG levels, 25mg Ed should do it for you, I think 50mg is overkill. If it was for libido, the test will do that for you now. Personally I'm not a big proviron fan.

During this cycle I'd use 2.5mg ED or EOD of letrozole, and have nolvadex on hand if you feel any gyno side effects.

good luck,

DrG

I believe deca does aromatize somewhat but not as much as test. EQ aromatizes at about 1/2 the rate as test.

Also, while I have heard people compare EQ to deca, Deca is more anabolic than EQ by a pretty good margin and less androgenic as well; and EQ isn't even that androgenic (again, about 1/2 that of test).

Most people I know of get very little results from say 400mg EQ alone for example, but would get decent results (with some possible sides) from 400mg deca alone. Even for a little guy, 400mg EQ alone is little more than an anticatabolic appetite enhancer.

I am not a big fan of test. I know many are incredulous at that statement but I have never reacted well to it. The only thing I get from test is a raging sex drive and bad acne. I get very little in the way of mass or strength from 525mg ew test prop. And yes, I analyzed my gear myself so I know it was legit. Everyone is different in the way the react to different drugs; cliche but true. Also, studies have shown that supraphysiological doses of test cuts collegin precursers in half, resulting in weakend tendons that may be more prone to rupture. Deca and EQ, in contrast, both increase those precursers and actually may help to strengthen tendons.

I like the original cycle OK but I would increase the EQ to at least 400mg ew. I think the Letro should be taken all the way through as well to combat aromatization of the EQ and Deca (and dbol). With the progestin activity of deca, I would be extra careful not to have a lot of estrogen around. That would surely cause gyno problems if you are prone.

The proviron would be there to help with sex drive and as an added anti-e.

[drgoodbody]

FYI - aromatase inhibitors don't work well with Deca (see below), although spidey is correct that it does aromatize to some degree.

Also, I respond very well to test and EQ - disagree wholeheartedly that 400mg of EQ is nothing more than an anticatabolic appetite stimulator.

As for collagen impact of supraphysiological test doses, that is also true of other AAS, most notably winstrol. GH would combat this, and that is why some older vets that I know say they wish they'd been using GH since day 1 of AAS use. I use GH, Chondroitan, Glucosamine, MSM, and a variety of other things to strengthen tendons, and have had no issues.

Not everyone responds the same to every drug - that is pharmacology 101 bro.

DrG

------
Nandrolone Decanoate by Bill Roberts - This drug is unique (so far as I know) in that 5a -reductase, the enzyme which converts testosterone to the more-potent DHT, actually converts nandrolone to a less-potent compound. Therefore this AAS is somewhat deactivated in the skin, scalp, and prostate, and these tissues experience an effectively-lower androgen level than the rest of the body. Therefore, for the same amount of activity as another drug at the androgen receptors (ARs) in muscle tissue, Deca gives less activity in the scalp, skin, and prostate. Thus, it is the best choice for those particularly concerned with these things.

Its effectiveness at the androgen receptor of muscle tissue is superior to that of testosterone: it binds better. Yet, it gives only about half the muscle-building results per milligram. This I think is a result of its being less effective or entirely ineffective in non-AR-mediated mechanisms for muscle growth.

It also appears less effective or entirely ineffective in activity on nerve cells, certainly on the nerve cells responsible for erectile function. Use of Deca as the sole AAS often results in complete inability to perform sexually.

These problems can be solved by combining with a drug that does supply the missing activity: e.g. testosterone.

Nandrolone is proven to be a progestin. This fact is of clear importance in bodybuilding, because while moderate Deca-only use actually lowers estrogen levels as a consequence of reducing natural testosterone levels and thus allowing the aromatase enzyme less substrate to work with, Deca nonetheless can cause gyno in some individuals. Furthermore, just as progesterone will to a point increase sex drive in women, and then often decrease it as levels get too high, high levels of progestogenic steroids can kill sex drive in male bodybuilders, though there is a great deal of individual variability as to what is too much.

Incidentally, this progestogenic activity also inhibits LH production, and contrary to common belief, even small amounts of Deca are quite inhibitory, approximately as much so as the same amount of testosterone.

To some extent, nandrolone aromatizes to estrogen, and it does not appear that this can be entirely blocked by use of aromatase inhibitors – indeed, aromatase may not be involved at all in this process (there is no evidence in humans that such occurs) with the enzyme CYP 2C11 being in my opinion the more likely candidate for this activity.

[spidey]

Originally posted by drgoodbody
FYI - aromatase inhibitors don't work well with Deca (see below), although spidey is correct that it does aromatize to some degree.

Also, I respond very well to test and EQ - disagree wholeheartedly that 400mg of EQ is nothing more than an anticatabolic appetite stimulator.

As for collagen impact of supraphysiological test doses, that is also true of other AAS, most notably winstrol. GH would combat this, and that is why some older vets that I know say they wish they'd been using GH since day 1 of AAS use. I use GH, Chondroitan, Glucosamine, MSM, and a variety of other things to strengthen tendons, and have had no issues.

Not everyone responds the same to every drug - that is pharmacology 101 bro.

DrG

[/B]

I agree that most people do respond well to test but, like you said, everyone is different. Most people I know would never do an EQ only cycle at all but if they did, they would likely use 600mg to 800 mg ew since 400mg ew only gives them modest gains. Then again, I don't see any experienced juicers doing a test only cycle with only 400mg test either.....

I did a cycle of 400mg ew boldenone cypionate once. It was a cutting cycle so I was only eating around maintanence and was taking clen and a small dose of T3 as well as more cardio than usual. I lost a total of 9 lbs and dropped 4% in BF in about 9 weeks. Doing the calculations, I lost about 8 lbs of fat and 1 lb LBM. Now, granted I wasn't bulking but I think I probably would have ADDED a little LBM had I been taking tren instead of my "short acting" EQ. The boldenone basically just allowed me to keep my muscle while I shed the fat.

Winny is a real irony. It actually INCREASES collagen precursers a great deal but somehow affects the crosslinking of the new collagen that is made so that it is thicker in physical size but less crosslinked and more brittle than collagen made under normal circumstances. This does indeed make the tendons weaker and more prone to rupture. Winny causes bigger, WEAKER tendons.

I would certainly agree that anyone using large doses of test or winny would benefit greatly by adding GH.

On a side note, I haven't seen you post in a long time. Glad to see you're still around. I'm sure many here value your insights into biology; I know I do. Sometimes I think I know just enough biology to get myself in trouble, LOL. It's not really my field.

[spidey]

Also, I find it interesting that Bill Roberts targets a CYP enzyme as a possible candidate for aromatizing nandrolone.

Speaking as a chemist, I think that is very possible. One of the major functions of aromatase is to remove that 19-methyl group so that the A ring of test can be aromatized. The 19-methyl is very important in binding to the aromatase enzyme and without it, binding is severly impaired; perhaps even blocked. An oxidative enzyme like a CYP might be able to oxidize nandrolone however, since it doesn't have a 19-methyl to get in the way. All it would take is to oxidize that A-ring to add one more double bond and the 3 keto would tautomerize to form the phenol and voila, we have estradiol.

[sreisin547]

ok, I'm glad I asked!! I'm revising this idea as we go here...what if I tweeked it a little to look like this:
1-4 dbol 40mg/day (to kickstart things)
1-12 eq 450mg/wk
1-12 tren 75mg/eod
1-12 test blend (150mg enan & 150mg cyp) 450mg/wk
1-12 proviron 25-50mg/day
10-12 hcg 500iu/3x per wk
letro throughout with nolva on hand in case


look more productive? I want to gain some quality muscle but really shred some bf too. anything you guys would change?
Also, I'm very prone to acne...any sugestions?

[drgoodbody]

Originally posted by spidey
On a side note, I haven't seen you post in a long time. Glad to see you're still around. I'm sure many here value your insights into biology; I know I do. Sometimes I think I know just enough biology to get myself in trouble, LOL. It's not really my field.

Thanks Spidey. Chemistry isn't my strong suit, but now I know who to bug :D

I'll try and post more frequently if I can add something of value,

DrG