Decca and EQ Any Benefit?

[therock]

I was wondering cause I hear both ways. Just want to know so I am not wasting money or wasting gear. Please help. I will be running sust and dbol aswell. It will be a 14wk cycle. Thanks in advance!

[Skyefire]

What are you asking? There are of course benifts to them or people would not spend the money on them. Both cost more then test so there is obvously some benfit to running them.

Here is part of FAQ I wrote about first cycles:

Types of cycles: There are (kind of) two schools of thought on what a first cycle should be composed of, testosterone only or a "bread and butter cycle", a cycle consisting of 2 or more injectable (one of witch is testosterone) with maybe an oral steroid to “jump start the cycle). Both have their good points and bad ones. A third option is a cycle based on another steroid, while not popular does work and is a viable option. Keep in mind that no cycle of any kind is going to work for you if your training and diet are not dialed in. Steroid can do wonders but they are not magic.

1. Testosterone only cycles. This is by and large the most popular first cycle (at least the most recommended). Testosterone is considered the king of steroids and with reason. One is that it is a fairly safe steroid, right in the middle spectrum so to speak. It is in fact the gauge by witch all other steroids strengths are measured from. It reasonable on sides (some but not too bad) effects, cost effective (good bang for the buck), and easily obtainable. Also noted is that it is one of the few steroids that you can simply keep increasing the dosage without running into major problems with. In this it is different from other steroid as it does not require adding a additional hormone to the stack to increases the gains. Rather you can just raise the dosage. 1 to 2 grams a week can be ran with less sides then some lower stack would give at half that. (I still think that it is insane to do it, just my 2 cents) Outside of boldenolone undecylenate I don’t know of any other steroid that you can do that with (with any degree of safety that is)

Here are some of the pros of running a test only cycle:
a. Nice gains but not too fast. This might not seam like a benefit at first until you consider the safety factor. Simple put your muscles can easily out grow your tendons and ligaments making you prone to injury. A lot of people regretted not running a higher dosage but slow and steady have been proven to win the race.
b. By using or adding on one component at a time you can gain a much better idea of how your body responds to gear/types of gear. In other word you get valuable experience that will help you plan you next cycle even better (Don’t even bother telling me that you only want to run one cycle. I haven’t met anyone yet that ran one cycle only).
c. Test is high for the bang for the buck. It is cheap and easy to get compared to other things. If you’re going to run just one steroid for your cycle this is the one to do it with.
d. 95% of everyone will respond well to test only. Everyone will respond to it if give a high enough dosage. But for just about everyone 400 to 750mg a week of testosterone will work just fine.

Some of the cons of running Testosterone only cycle:
a. Limited gains if you keep the dosage reasonable. Most steroids have a strong stringency with other types of steroids. So in effect your losing out on gains that would bring little or no sides with them. And almost everything stacks well with testosterone so it hard to justify not getting the best bang for your buck.
b. Test only is bad for the tendons and ligaments. Here is a quote from a article by AnimalMass on competitivemuscle.com (thanks Puddles for giving this to me)

While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Found this out the hard way. I have done some further research and while no one agrees on how much or how bad they do agree that it happens.
c. Very little control on effects, i.e. with the bread and butter cycles you can modify the effects with the type of gear you stack with the testosterone. This one is a little iffy as you can run ancillary drugs and modify your diet to achieve most anything. See a good example go read canadagold’s post here: http://www.superiormuscle.com/vbulle...threadid=16753

There are 5 Testosterone esters that are commonly used. For the best article I have read about the difference between esters and the reason why go here: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...id-esters.htm. Here is another (simpler) article regarding Testosterone and its esters here : http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/esters.html. Below is a brief description of each of the common esters of Testosterone. While all esters should be same in theory that is not the case as the esters do seam to affect some of the properties of the Testosterone despite what the above article say. Then main differences being the amount of water it causes you to hold and the intrinsic strength (long ester spread the disruption out so shorter ester can act like they’re stronger) Be aware that there are a lot more esters available it’s just that they just aren’t common.

Testosterone Base has no ester and is commonly found as a waterborne suspension. It is primarily used ware drug testing is problem or as the oil based results of a conversion from cattle pellets. (See http://www.chemicalfitness.com/forum...read.php?t=127 for info on cattle pellets). Requires ED injections even as an oil based solution.

Testosterone Propionate is a short estered Testosterone that has a half-life of about 4.5 days. This makes the need for frequent injections, preferable every other day, every third day at least. Low water retention make it a favorite for cutting cycles. Also it is excellent for jump starting a cycle due to it short “kick in” time.

Testosterone Enanthate is a medium long ester with a half-life of 10.5 days. Has been said to cause more water retention then the Cypionate ester but that is hard to explain or verify. The Enanthate ester is said to be the more natural ester and less likely to cause a reaction. By and large Testosterone Enanthate and Cypionate are close enough to be interchangeable.

Testosterone Cypionate is a medium long ester with a half-life of 12 days. It is probably (not so much any more, but in old school) the most popular ester of Testosterone. Was widely held to produce better gain the Enanthate ester although this is not likely the case. It is said to cause less water retention then the Enanthate but again this is hard to explain or verify.

Testosterone Decanoate is a long estered Testosterone with a half-life of 15 days. It is not as common as the above esters but is still found fairly often as neo-test or as a component of sustanon. Sense this ester of Testosterone take almost 6 weeks to fully “kick in” It is recommended that the cycle length be at least 12 week or better.

Sustanon is not a ester of Testosterone but a blend of them, 12% being Testosterone Propionate, 24% Testosterone Phenylpropionate, 24% Testosterone Isocaproate, and 40% Testosterone Decanoate. This is not my favorite concoction. In theory Sustanon 250 should be a twice a week shot. Having said that I would say at least 3x a week (Mon, Wed, Fri). The Phenyl Propionate is the problem here, it is suppose to have a longer half life of around 6 to 7 days, putting it in the middle of the Test Isocaproate (9 to 9.5 days) and the Test Propionate (4 to 5 days). The problem with this is that if we look at the actual clinical half life of Nandrolone Phenyl Propionate its not even close to that, if I recall correctly it was almost the same as propionate. I have no reason to think that the Test Phenyl Propionate will be any different. While this doesn’t actually change much (the average half life is still going to be around 5.5 to 6 days instead of 6 to 7 days) it does kill the twice a week schedule IMO as well as getting rid of the notion of “smooth blending of esters” This is one reason I am not over fond of Sustanon, that and mixing in an ester that 4 times as long as half of your mixture. Just my two cents. Also refer back to http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/esters.html.

Basic Testosterone only cycle:
500mg of Testosterone Cypionate (divide into two shots a week) a week for 10 weeks
10mg of nolvadex ED for weeks 1 to 11
Start PCT (Post cycle therapy) week 12 with 40mg of Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex) for 2 weeks then run 20mg ED for another 2 weeks.

Testosterone only cycle with a “kick start”
500mg of Testosterone Cypionate (divide into two shots a week) a week for 10 weeks
150mg of Testosterone Propionate EOD for the first week.
100mg of Testosterone Propionate EOD for the second week
100mg of Testosterone Propionate E3rd day.
10mg of nolvadex ED for weeks 1 to 11
Start PCT (Post cycle therapy) week 12 with 40mg of Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex) for 2 weeks then run 20mg ED for another 2 weeks.

Front loaded Testosterone Cypionate only cycle.
Ether 1.5 grams the first week (not recommend, good way to get the test flu) divided into 6shots with 500mg a week weeks 2 to 10
Or 750mg a week weeks 1 to 3 then 500mg a week weeks 4 to 10
Or 1gram the first week, 750mg the second week, then 500mg a week weeks 3 to 10.
Start PCT (Post cycle therapy) week 12 with 40mg of Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex) for 2 weeks then run 20mg ED for another 2 weeks.

That PCT cycle is good for almost anything. For more information on PCT and HCG go read : http://www.chemicalfitness.com/forum...read.php?t=371

2. Bread and butter cycles are cycles consisting of 2 or more injectable (one of witch is testosterone) with maybe an oral steroid to “jump start the cycle). The term itself refers to the cycle being a basic (but effective) cycle that usually tried and true. Most of these are from the old school (referring to the times past when we did not have the PCT options or knowledge that we do now). We now know that it is unnecessary and counter productive to ramp up and down on dosages, use long esters to keep gains, or to stack thing steroids according to the receptor type. Nonetheless these still highly effective cycles that have been proven over time. These cycles almost always combine a long estered Testosterone with another long estered steroid, most notably Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) and Boldenolone Undecylenate (Equipoise or EQ) with the option of running Methandrostenolone (Dianabol or Dbol) for the fist part while waiting for the longer esters to gradually build up. Testosterone Propionate or base can also be used for this purpose. See here for information about the build up of esters http://www.chemicalfitness.com/forum...read.php?t=125

Bread and butter pros
a. Good gains, usually better then test alone mg per mg (depends on the kind of steroid being ran). I am referring to running steroids that have a good stringency with each other. See below for more info.
b. Almost always includes Deca or EQ; ether of is good for the tendons and ligaments. This helps offset the testosterones tendency to reduce collagen production. Here is another quote from the same article (http://www.chemicalfitness.com/forum...5711#post15711)

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

and

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

c. Lot of flexibility on effects, i.e. by controlling what you run with the test you can affect the types of gains you make (to a point that is.) Again diet (especially) and ancillary drugs will make a huge difference.
d. You can also benefit from the other sides of different types of gear, for instance EQ helps promote hunger and raises your red blood cell count. Nandrolone Decanoate is known to hold fluid in the joints giving a lubrication effect. As you can see there are several benefits to running these steroids with test.

Cons:
See benefit of test only. Minus all of that and it cost a lot more.

Some of the common steroid used in a bread and butter. For a detailed profile of the steroids below and all others go see : http://www.chemicalfitness.com/forum...isplay.php?f=5
http://www.superiormuscle.com/vbulle...?s=&forumid=26 and http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsteroids.htm .

Testosterone of a medium or long ester as listed above as a base of the cycle.

Boldenolone Undecylenate (EQ, Equipoise) helps promote hunger and raises your red blood cell count. Tends to promote lean gains and/or to help harden up. Has low water retention. Takes up to 6 weeks to kick in so it is better suited for a longer (12 weeks or better) cycle. This is a very mild/weak steroid that is often ran under dosed. Dosage should start about 400mg a week (this is my opinion only here) and can be ran up to 800 (people have ran it higher then that and told me later that they though it was just a waste of gear) mg a week if you’re using it as the base of your cycle. Both Nandrolone Decanoate and Boldenolone Undecylenate are believed to help increase tendon and ligament strengths. Please note that they still will not keep up with the muscle, there is just less of a discrepancy there.


Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) is a fairly powerful steroid in its own right, much more so then EQ. High water retention. Starting dosages 200 are enough to gain the joint lubrication benefits of this hormone. For mass (that is what Nandrolone Decanoate is really good for) dosages start at around 300mg up to around 600mg a week (this is debatable here) It, like the EQ, takes about 6 weeks to fully kick in. Both Nandrolone Decanoate and Boldenolone Undecylenate are believed to help increase tendon and ligament strengths. Please note that they still will not keep up with the muscle, there is just less of a discrepancy there.

Stanozolol (Winny, Winstrol, Stromba) is a popular oral that I wonder why anyone would take. It is popular because it is a very “dry” steroid that helps provide that harden chiseled look. It also dries out your joints (can we say arthritis like symptoms?) and tends to weaken your tendons. Again see : http://www.chemicalfitness.com/forum...5711#post15711 for more information. As like all 17-alpha alkylated (methylated, 17-alpha-methyl, 17-methyl group) steroids it is liver toxic and should not be ran over 6 weeks.

Methandrostenolone (Dianabol, Dbol, Anabol) is one of the more powerful orals available. Unfortunately it has a lot of estrogen-mediated side-effects as well has hold a lot of water (bloat). However a little goes a long way with a starting does at around 25mg ed (divide to twice a day is recommended) will deliver good gains while bring only moderate side effects. 50mg seams to be about as high of a dose as most people will use. If you’re looking to jump-start a cycle this is a good choice. Surprisingly Methandrostenolone is also an excellent cutting drug when ran with an aromatase inhibitor as it has a very strong anti carbolic action, nearly that of trenbolone. As like all 17-alpha alkylated (methylated, 17-alpha-methyl, 17-methyl group) steroids it is liver toxic and should not be ran over 6 weeks.

Oxymetholone (drol, A-bomb) is not a drug of choice for a first cycle. Very bad on the side and very liver toxic the effects are compounded by the high dosage necessary to see good results, anywhere from 75 to 200mg ED. To add injury to insult it makes many (me among them) fill sick, kills your appetite, and make you lethargic. Some people do love the stuff but there are safer and better options out there.

Some standard “Bread and Butter Cycles”:
Bulker:
500mg of Testosterone Cypionate (divide into two shots a week) a week for 14 weeks
400mg of Nandrolone Decanoate (one or two shots a week) a week for 13 weeks.
250iu HCG twice a week for weeks 1 to 4, then 3 times a week for weeks 5 to 15
10mg Tamoxifen Citrate every day weeks 1 to 15. That is 2 5,000iu amps
Start PCT week 16 with 40mg of Tamoxifen Citrate every day for two weeks then 20mg every day for another 2 week.

Big bulker:
500mg of Testosterone Cypionate (divide into two shots a week) a week for 14 weeks
400mg of Nandrolone Decanoate (one or two shots a week) a week for 13 weeks.
15 to 25mg of Methandrostenolone 2 twice a day for weeks 1 to 6.
250iu HCG twice a week for weeks 1 to 4, then 3 times a week for weeks 5 to 15
10mg Tamoxifen Citrate every day weeks 1 to 15. That is 2 5,000iu amps
Start PCT week 16 with 40mg of Tamoxifen Citrate every day for two weeks then 20mg every day for another 2 week.

Leaner gains cycle:
500mg of Testosterone Cypionate (divide into two shots a week) a week for 14 weeks
500mg Boldenolone Undecylenate (one or two shots a week) a week for 13 weeks.
250iu HCG twice a week for weeks 5 to 15.
Start PCT week 16 with 40mg of Tamoxifen Citrate every day for two weeks then 20mg every day for another 2 week.

[beefcake]

Man, that's some good reading there skyefire. Is that sticky'd? It should be if it isn't.

[therock]

No that wasnt what I was asking. I was asking if there is any benefit in running them at the sametime. I have run decca before. So I know all about it just dont know if there is any reason to run them together.

[house1]

I was asking if there is any benefit in running them at the sametime. .

imo no bro just a waste of funds to do both at the same time --

some prefer deca when bulking and eq when cutting -- i like eq all the way around

i would do one or the other not both at the same time

[joe bigboy]

i'd just go with one or the other, i've always done alot better with EQ than i have with deca, i do however like deca for helping out my joints while i'm on it

[therock]

Ok thanks. That just saved me a good chunk of change!

[hitman75606]

As always skyfire...you put alot of good info into your post.

Great read!!!

[pierced one]

holy shit, i read more there than i did in my biology work for tonight.

[Skyefire]

Originally posted by therock
No that wasnt what I was asking. I was asking if there is any benefit in running them at the sametime. I have run decca before. So I know all about it just dont know if there is any reason to run them together.

My bad. I love running them togather but a lot of people don't (just look at the other post) I make my own so coast isn't a much of an issue but it isn't the best bang for the buck combo.

[therock]

Hey skyfire if money is not an issue should I run both with sust and dbol plus add some tren towards the end? What you think. Just remember money is not an issue.

[Cmsmallzz]

250iu HCG twice a week for weeks 1 to 4, then 3 times a week for weeks 5 to 15

Skyefire, with this dosing schedule when I start the HCG 3 times a week on week 5 do I just shoot on Fri, Sat, and Sun, or should I space it out more?

[Cmsmallzz]

Beefcake, definately agree on tihs being sticky'd.

[therock]

Hey I have asked this question many time and no one has really gave me a real answer. SKYFIRE say you like to run them both at the sametime. So if you dont mind me asking you this. What is the benefit of running them together? I was thinking about running the eq for the hunger factor and I do want my veins to show a lot more but I am going to run decca. Just dont know if eq will do what I want it to do while on decca. My new cycle is this.
Either test e or sust 750mg wks 1-14
decca 400mgs wks 1-14
dbol 50mgs ed wks 1-5
and maybe eq if you think I should.
Also clomid therapy at the end.
192lbs 5'9''
I am going to start up in the next 2wks so please help. Thanks bro.