clomid vs nolvadex

[arsiem]

i have read both nolvadex and clomid have similar structure and both have similar mode of action and therefore can be used interchangeably.. i'm just wondering why some people use both in combination during PCT.

during cycles, i know nolvadex is the choice to counter gyno since it is the stronger of the two. but when it comes to post cycle therapy should i still choose nolvadex over clomid? not to mention that clomid is almost 5X pricier than nolvadex here.

any comments? thanks.

[Stonecold54]

novaldex has less estrogenic sides when used for PCT and thus is usually preferred. If you can handle clomid then a combo is good for PCT is fine. But if you choose just one use novaldex for everything.

[joe bigboy]

i like nolva better because with it i don't feel as bad, i feel like shit when i'm on clomid

[beefcake]

Good ole basskiller to the rescue.

http://www.basskilleronline.com/nolvadex_vs_clomid.html

[JUICE]

i like nolva more, thats why i chose it for pct this cylce again.

[Cmsmallzz]

Just to play devil's advocate...

Origianlly posted by Pheedno on worldclassbodybuilding...Here is the original link as there is a lot more info on there...and many more studies.

http://www.worldclassbodybuilding.co...ead.php?t=2930

Now, IMO clomid is selective to the suprapituitary, while Nolva is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotphin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex

Case study showing benefit to FSH, LH, and testosterone from tamox- Notice administration duration

Treatment of idiopathic and post varicocelectomy oligozoospermia with oral tamoxifen citrate.
BJU Int 1999 Apr; 83: 646-8
Kadioglu TC Köksal IT Tunç M Nane I Tellaloglu S

Affiliation
Department of Urology, Faculty of Medicine, Istanbul University, Istanbul, Turkey.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To identify a subgroup of men who may benefit from tamoxifen citrate (a widely prescribed drug for male infertility) among those with normogonadotrophic and hypergonadotrophic oligozoospermia, either idiopathic or after varicocelectomy. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The study included infertile men with oligozoospermia, 136 referred to our outpatient clinic and 84 infertile after varicocelectomy. All patients received tamoxifen citrate (10 mg twice daily); semen analysis and hormone tests were repeated at the end of 3 and 6 months of treatment, the values being compared with those before treatment. RESULTS : The levels of follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone and testosterone increased in all groups receiving tamoxifen citrate. Normogonadotrophic patients had a significant increase in sperm count and concentration, while the slight increase detected in the hypergonadotrophic group was statistically insignificant. CONCLUSION: In patients with normogonadotrophic oligozoospermia, tamoxifen citrate may be offered as a practical and economic alternative before using any assisted reproduction techniques. However, double-blind placebo-controlled trials are needed to confirm the findings of this preliminary study.

[arsiem]

thank you so much guys.. you're all very helpful.

[mcbvr6]

The study prvided by Cmsmallzz is exactly correct IMO. Llewellyn's article is the one always cited by those who prefer Nolvadex, but it doesn't address the reasons WE use these two drugs. Nolva is stronger yes - but its effects are not as specifically targeted to htpa recovery as clomids'.

But don't take my word for it, go ask any fertility specialist what drug they prescribe to men with low sperm counts to stimulate test production? The answer is clomid (although some just treat the symptoms by giving HCG). No doctors are prescribing Nolvadex to increase test production.

Personally, I use both. But I wouldn't give up the clomid for nolvadex. You see people write that they like Nolvadex better because they don't break out as badly, that's because it isn't working. Acne is typically the result of hormone fluctuations, which is what you want when you are trying to get your natual levels back up.

[beefcake]

Originally posted by mcbvr6
But don't take my word for it, go ask any fertility specialist what drug they prescribe to men with low sperm counts to stimulate test production? The answer is clomid (although some just treat the symptoms by giving HCG). No doctors are prescribing Nolvadex to increase test production.

But what about clomid's effect on increasing shbg levels. This kind of defeats the purpose of using it to increase test levels.

[Cmsmallzz]

Originally posted by mcbvr6
Personally, I use both. But I wouldn't give up the clomid for nolvadex.

:agree: I am just not sold on the fact that nolvadex alone is enough for a successful PCT. My next cycle I am going to give Pheedno's PCT a try, which has the inclusion of an AI, specifically Arimidex. Click on the link above and read up on it if your curious...

[Cmsmallzz]

Originally posted by beefcake
But what about clomid's effect on increasing shbg levels. This kind of defeats the purpose of using it to increase test levels.

That is a good question...I've read that the inclusion of an AI, one will endure less of an increase in SHGB levels, allowing free testosterone to reach base line quicker.

[beefcake]

Originally posted by Cmsmallzz
That is a good question...I've read that the inclusion of an AI, one will endure less of an increase in SHGB levels, allowing free testosterone to reach base line quicker.

Makes me wonder if the addition of proviron would be benefitial.

[Cmsmallzz]

Originally posted by beefcake
Makes me wonder if the addition of proviron would be benefitial.

Hmmm....I am guessing that it might help in terms of the side effects related to lower T levels such as libido, but I dount if it has any positive effect on the HPTA. Probably not.

[beefcake]

Originally posted by Cmsmallzz
Hmmm....I am guessing that it might help in terms of the side effects related to lower T levels such as libido, but I wonder if it has any effect on the HPTA. Probably not.

It should benefit by lowering the shbg levels. It shouldn't have any negative effect on endogenous levels since dht isn't suppressive.

[Cmsmallzz]

Originally posted by beefcake
It should benefit by lowering the shbg levels. It shouldn't have any negative effect on endogenous levels since dht isn't suppressive.

Are you sure Bro? Exogenous DHT is supressive in of itself.
At a high enough dose I bet proviron would hinder recovery and cause inhibition since it is an androgen. Not saying you are wrong Bro, but its an interesting subject.