Prolactin / Progesterone Related Gyno

[Curls4dGirls]

So in researching prolactin / progesterone gyno, I found two schools of thought. One school says that anti aromatase drugs will prevent prolactin / progesterone related gyno. This is summarized in Spidey's post below. Another school says that anti aromatase drugs do not help with prolactin / progesterone related gyno, summarized in Macro's post below.

Thoughts? Anybody have any definitive research either way?


School #1 Spidey:

"Gyno is the result of at least 4 different hormones working in concert; estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, and IGF-1. If you eliminate ANY of the four, gyno can't develop.

Bromo is a very harsh drug and it makes many nausous. If you MUST use a prolactin suppressing drug, dostinex is much more potent and has fewer sides. Any of the anti aromatase drugs (l-dex, arimidex, letrazole, aromasin) WILL work to prevent gyno as they prevent estrogen, a necessary hormone for gyno to develop. After you already have gyno, nolvadex is the best choice IMO.

There really isn't any difference in the gyno caused by deca or tren and that caused by aromatizing AAS. They ALL need estrogen to develop and grow. Without estrogen, you could inject pure progesterone and you wouldn't develop gyno.

Large doses of vitamin B6 has been shown to lower prolactin and would also help prevent or reduce gyno. Unlike bromo or even dostinex, B6 doesn't have ANY sides."


School #2
"Deca and You by Macro
A short reply to 2thick- on the anabolic board

In honor of Ranger-who knows well the potential evils of Deca

Nandrolone, popularly known as Deca, is a classified as a progestin. Deca derives many of its benefits from its progestenic nature: including, but not limited to, increase IM fat storage and increased fluid retention in the joints from glucocorticoid(GC) stimulation.

This brings us to the second most common problem with the use of progestenic drugs like Deca, the breast tissue has both PR(progesterone receptors) and ER(estrogen receptors) and stimulation of either will result in new tissue formation and growth. This will vary considerably from individual to individuals based on the numbers and ratio of receptors in the tissue. Some individuals have more PR, which will make them more susceptable to Gyno. Another suspected factor is that there are slightly physiologically different PR, as well as ER and AR, which may effect binding and expression of synthetic progestins either positively or negatively.

The use of Anti-estrogens and Aromatase-inhibitors will help by reducing stimulation of the ER in the breast tissue. However, those with high concentrations of PR or PR whose physiology allows for greater binding or expression of progestins will be faced with developing Gynomacastia.

In short

1. DECA dick is real

2. DECA does cause Gyno

3. DECA is progestin it must be fought with anti-progestins

4. Use of Nolvadex and Arimidex will help, but only by reducing ER stimulation.

Peace"

[Stonecold54]

I can just tell you what has happened to me personally...deca and tren give me gyno no matter how many anti-estrogens I take both serms and anti-aromatases. so I can't believe that estrogen has to be present for prolactin gyno to occur. that is just from my personal experience.

[spidey]

WHile it is true that deca is a progestin, it is also an aromatizable AAS. To make it worse, it is likely aromatized via a liver CYP enzyme and not aromatase. It may not even be a substrate for aromatase. This would render antiaromatases like letrazole or arimidex useless. Estrogen blockers like SERMS (nolva) would definitly be a better choice, HOWEVER, they are not 100% efficient; far from it in fact.

Look at it like this: a normal guy produces something like 50 to 100mg test a week (I think). Natural test production is not completely shut down when on a cycle, just suppressed. Let's say for the sake of argument, it is decreased by 75%. Let's also say that you are taking 300 mg ew deca (many take higher doses). Deca aromatizes to estradiol at around half the rate as test so now you have the estrogen production equivalent to 12.5 to 25 mg test (25% natural production) plus 150mg test (from aromatization of deca). This adds up to the equivalent of 162.5 to 175 mg test or a 62.5% to 75% INCREASE in estrogen over normal levels. An antiaromatase would only marginally affect the estrogen levels since deca is aromatized by a different enzyme than aromatase. All an antiaromatase would affect is that 25% residiual test being aromatized. Letrazole inhibits aromatase to the tune of something like 80% so instead of 12.5 to 25 mg test being aromatized at the normal rate, it would only be equivalent to 2.5 to 5 mg being aromatized. BIG DEAL, you still have 152.5 to 155 mg or 52.5% to 55% OVER normal levels. Taking a SERM like nolva blocks something like 40% of the estrogen at normal doses so by taking nolva alone, your estrogen goes down to that which would be obtained from aromatizing 97.5 to 105 mg test at normal rates. THAT IS EQUIVALENT TO THE AMOUNT OF ESTROGEN A NORMAL GUY PRODUCES ANYWAY AND IS TWICE AS MUCH AS NORMAL FOR SOME GUYS. And you wonder why deca causes gyno????

Throw into that mix that prolactin is produced by a progesterone mediated pathway and deca is a progestin. Now you have estrogen, progestin, and prolactin all at elevated levels. Most AAS. if not all of them, increase IGF-1 levels. Now you have all four necessary ingredients for gyno all at elevated levels. Unless you are gyno resistant, I'd say it is almost a sure thing.

Tren is a little different since it is not aromatized by any mechanism I know about. Stonecold - were you taking anything else besides the tren when it caused gyno? A test/tren cycle (very common cycle) will have similar problems as the deca cycle but antiaromatases should help in the tren/test case. Keep in mind though that antiaromatases do not completely inhibit aromatase so some estrogen is still being produced. If you are sensitive, the increased progestin/prolactin/IGF-1 along with even the decreased estrogen levels may still cause a problem.

I stand by my statements that all four of those hormones are needed for gyno to develop and the elimination of ANY of them will prevent gyno. If estrogen reduction alone doesn't work, perhaps a stratagy whereby estrogen AND prolactin are reduced may work better. LArge doses of vitamin B6 are known to reduce prolactin and dostinex can virtually eliminate it. Bromo is not even FDA approved for prolactemia anymore since it is so harsh and is less effective and less tolerated than dostinex.

[Curls4dGirls]

nice response ... makes sense.

[MADO01A]

so two diff cycle to avoid gyno are possible

1.

test/bold.....and AI (no progestin, not too much oest)

2.

tren/winny/primo (no oestrogens)

am i right ?

[Bouncer]

so two diff cycle to avoid gyno are possible

1.

test/bold.....and AI (no progestin, not too much oest)

2.

tren/winny/primo (no oestrogens)

am i right ?

well not really. different people react differently. some people can be very sensative to test. others can get progesterone related gyno from compounds like tren or deca.

[MADO01A]

but with tren/winny/primo u should not have the oestrogens needed for a gyno, one of the four hormones is eliminated so theoricaly no gyno ? i had one with deca only, so i cant tell whether it is progestin or oestrogen related(or both) ?

[highrep]

very good info.