IGF-1 vs. HGH?

[Sootybaby]

Nope. what I would say that since the action of your own levels of IGF-I, which are elevated by supraphysiological doses of hGH, do not result in muscle growth I am unsure wether injecting IGF-I on its own will cause much response in the normal healthy adult either.

Some very recent studies from Denmark on athletes have shown that hGH does not increase muscle mass. A study which my lab carried out for WADA seems to show much the same. I was a volunteer in the sudy 'cos we had a dropout of a couple of subjects and I am at least a trained individual and as such I have first hand experience and I can tell you that I did not consider hGH on its own to be performance enhancing. Anything but in fact, the water retention is a bu@ger to deal with!

IGF-I may play a role in muscle mass and anabolism. But it is a more complex issue than people think and straight supraphysiological doses are not particularly effective unless you are deficient in your normal IGF-I production (and most everyone is fine in this department).

[Bouncer]

Good post Scootybaby. One question though, how long was the GH study? I have run GH as long as year at 6iu a day. At first, just like your study says, I was holding some water. But as time went on, I seem to hold less and less. At 2-3 months out I was really dropping bodyfat. Then around 6-7 months out I noticed that my muscle bellies were more full, and all my measurements were up. Keep in mind I was leaner.

I believe that GH is a great fat burner. Second I believe that GH is great at actually "sculpting" the body. My whole shape just changes for the better while on GH. And third I do believe that it has the ability to put on muscle mass but I think this is very slow and takes along time with GH. The muscle you put on however, you keep.

That is just my experiance with GH. I cant speak for everyone.

[rhinotat2]

[QUOTE=Sootybaby]Nope. what I would say that since the action of your own levels of IGF-I, which are elevated by supraphysiological doses of hGH, do not result in muscle growth I am unsure wether injecting IGF-I on its own will cause much response in the normal healthy adult either.

I too share the same opinion as you Bouncer on GH although our feelings differ on IGF-1.

IGF-1 stimulates both proliferation (an increase in cell number) and differentiation (a conversion to muscle specific nuclei) in an autocrine-paracrine manner, although it induces differentiation to a much greater degree. This is in agreement with the Dual Effector theory. In fact, you can inject a muscle with IGF-1 and it will grow! Studies have shown that , when injected locally, IGF-1 increases satellite cell activity, muscle DNA content, muscle protein content, muscle weight and muscle cross sectional area (Adams,1998).

Perhaps the most interesting and potent effect IGF has on the human body is its ability to cause hyperplasia, which is an actual splitting of cells. Hypertrophy is what occurs during weight training and steroid use, it is simply an increase in the size of muscle cells.

There is a lot of talk about the similarity between IGF and growth hormone. The most often asked question is simply which is more effective. GH doesn't directly cause your muscles to grow, it works very indirectly by increasing protein synthesis capabilities, increasing the amount of insulin a person can use effectively, and increasing the amount of anabolic steroids a person can use effectively. GH also indirectly causes muscle growth by stimulating the release of IGF when it (the GH) is destroyed in the human body. So one way you could look at it as GH being a precursor to IGF. So to put it simple IGF is more effective at directly causing muscle growth and density increases. IGF is also much more cost effective.

IGF can also be effectively used by itself and gains will still be easily noticeable. With growth hormone you need to use high amounts of anabolics and often insulin to see any gains at all, this is not the case with IGF. IGF can be used by itself and is often used by bodybuilders who bridge between cycles, during this bridge is a good time to use IGF since it has no effect on natural testosterone production so it will therefore allow you to return to normal in terms of hormone levels. A stack of IGF, PGF2a, HCG, and clomid would be a good bridge stack and would allow your body to return to normal and still allow you to retain and make new gains

[Sootybaby]

Hi Bouncer the time course was no where near that long. Our study was primarily for detection of hGH not for it's anabolic effects. I pu on about 10lbs in water and found that hard to deal with.

Its use for BB'ing is not something that is ever really going to be studied even by bodies such as the IOC and doping bodies like WADA 'cos BB'ing is just not a n activity that concerns them.

I would say that from a purely athletic or power sport application I am not sure wether hGH is much cop.

In terms of BB'ing the length of the time you are on it would rule out most scientific studies. We just could not reasonably ask people to enter into studies of that length.

It is interesting that you felt that you seemed to hold less water as time went on 'cos that would be the big set back for any athletic endevour. I was doing some track work and just felt incredibly weighed down when I was on the stuff.

But compared to AAS I think that would say that hGH is really just a finisher. Although for many the fact that it moves fat especially from the body trunk is a plus.

When you consider though, that geriatric patients respond to hGH with muscle growth quite quickly when combined with resistance exercise (elderly subjects have significantly below normal levels of hGH). You can see that there is obviously a regulated kick back in the body of normal people. Studies have shown that even at doses of 20IU e/d (again from Sweden) no significant changes in muscle mass are seen after 1 month.

Some of the theories regarding IGF-I include the possibility that there is a more muscle specific isoform related to stressed muscles and /or other regulating factors. Such that merely pumping in increasing doses of the liver isoform (which is what every recombinant form currently available is based on) is missing the trick. Trouble being that we don't know what that trick is at present. A lab closely related to me is looking at an alternatively spliced IGF-I (MGF) but even I am not going to state that this is Miracle Grow!

[Sootybaby]

rhinotat2 - I am aware of that paper (Adams 1998). This paper deals with the fact that we can detect increases of IGF-I when muscles are exercised. Not that muscle gets bigger or stronger when IGF-I is injected.

There appears to be a world of difference between these two states in humans. The specific type of IGF secreted by loaded muscles or some other co-related factor may be different from systemic IGF-I.

[rhinotat2]

[QUOTE=Sootybaby]rhinotat2 - I am aware of that paper (Adams 1998). This paper deals with the fact that we can detect increases of IGF-I when muscles are exercised. Not that muscle gets bigger or stronger when IGF-I is injected.

Niether IGF-1 or HGH will cause Hypertrophy but will casue hyperplasia.

IGF-1 promotes splitting of cells which in return with lifting weights makes those 2 cells rather then 1 cell larger. Two is far better then one in this case.

Perhaps the most interesting and potent effect IGF has on the human body is its ability to cause hyperplasia, which is an actual splitting of cells. Hypertrophy is what occurs during weight training and steroid use, it is simply an increase in the size of muscle cells.

[Bouncer]

great post scootybaby! thanks for sharing your info with us.

[ROCKETW19]

Good post Scootybaby. One question though, how long was the GH study? I have run GH as long as year at 6iu a day. At first, just like your study says, I was holding some water. But as time went on, I seem to hold less and less. At 2-3 months out I was really dropping bodyfat. Then around 6-7 months out I noticed that my muscle bellies were more full, and all my measurements were up. Keep in mind I was leaner.

I believe that GH is a great fat burner. Second I believe that GH is great at actually "sculpting" the body. My whole shape just changes for the better while on GH. And third I do believe that it has the ability to put on muscle mass but I think this is very slow and takes along time with GH. The muscle you put on however, you keep.

That is just my experiance with GH. I cant speak for everyone.

ive been on 5 ius a day for 1.5years and i agree with bouncer 100% his bottom paragraph is word for word what i would say.

[Bouncer]

check your pm rocket.

[Stonecold54]

well I can attest for the water weight gain...I put on about 20 pounds in the first 3 weeks of only 3-4 iu per day. I only stayed on for 2 months because of Gyno issues but I didn't lose any of that weight when i came off... I dropped the water weight and still was 220. I have since actually dieted and I am down to 215 but never before my short run of GH did I break 200 pounds. I still want to try a run with IGF for myself and see what it does.

[rhinotat2]

I still want to try a run with IGF for myself and see what it does.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure what time frame your on but I just purchased a few mgs. If you want to wait to see my results I'll fill you in on the manufacture and what I thought about it. Its going to be another 3 or 4 weeks before I start though.

[Chadd77]

I still want to try a run with IGF for myself and see what it does.

I am not sure what time frame your on but I just purchased a few mgs. If you want to wait to see my results I'll fill you in on the manufacture and what I thought about it. Its going to be another 3 or 4 weeks before I start though.[/QUOTE]


Please post your results. Would like to see if it works for you.