Anabolics and heart problems?

[Lmg2701]

I know there can be a direct relation between these two, but I've also read that this comes at the expense of high dosages.

I'm curious if there are any threads that you guys would know of off hand to there being a relation between a normal user who may run 2 cycles a year but not at extreme dosages (i.e. gram or more of test per week).

Heart problems run in my family and I've been thinking more and more lately about how short our time here is. I have fairly extensive goals as far as my physique and bodybuilding goes, but I'm not willing to endeavor in this journey at the expense of dying really young. I get periodic blood tests done and I check the pulse rate and blood pressure often, but maybe that isn't enough. With the recent post by Bouncer about Don Youngblood and other stories of people dying so young, it gives you a different perspective on life.

[shortz]

Well, there are several nondirect ways that anabolics effect your hear. First, testosterone helps to regulate cholesterol and a dramatic increase in testosterone can cause an increase in cholesterol. Too high of LDL in the system will lead to blood pressure problems, then heart problems. Some gear raises blood pressure during use, even if it doesn't increase cholesterol.

So, an increase of blood pressure can cause hypertrophy in the heart and not to mention that the heart is a muscle too, so steroids may use some slight hypertrophy on their own too.

[shortz]

So, what does this tell you? Keep doses to a level that you can make gains without being excessive, keep blood pressure and cholsterol under control and you should be safe....SHOULD be...

[spidey]

I cut and pasted this from my reply to the death of that BB in the chat section.
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This is just one of the very real risks of AAS use. They are not totally harmless. The heart muscle has androgen receptors just like your skeletal muscles. It is dose dependent so the more you take, the worse it will be. I read a study sometime recently that measured cardiac hypertrophy in AAS using BB's as a function of the doses of AAS they were using. Curiously, HGH and AAS appeared to act synergisticly. That is, more cardiac hypertrophy was seen when both HGH and AAS were used at the same time than with either one alone or even when the effects of HGH and AAS were added together. Fortunately for us, the cardiac hypertrophy due to AAS or GH use was reversed (at least somewhat) when the use of the drugs was discontinued. I don't think it is TOTALLY reversed but it does get better.

I don't feel I am killing myself with one or two low dose cycles a year but, nontheless, the risk is there. These proffesional BB's who are in the top elite use amounts of AAS and GH that boggle the mind and they virtually never go off. The damage to their hearts is almost certain.

LMG2701 - Does your doctor know of your AAS use? If he does, he might be amenable to giving you a CT scan or something to see if you have an enlarged heart. If you do, I would stop all AAS and GH use pronto and never pick them up again.

[GreekTank]

Originally posted by spidey
I cut and pasted this from my reply to the death of that BB in the chat section.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is just one of the very real risks of AAS use. They are not totally harmless. The heart muscle has androgen receptors just like your skeletal muscles. It is dose dependent so the more you take, the worse it will be. I read a study sometime recently that measured cardiac hypertrophy in AAS using BB's as a function of the doses of AAS they were using. Curiously, HGH and AAS appeared to act synergisticly. That is, more cardiac hypertrophy was seen when both HGH and AAS were used at the same time than with either one alone or even when the effects of HGH and AAS were added together. Fortunately for us, the cardiac hypertrophy due to AAS or GH use was reversed (at least somewhat) when the use of the drugs was discontinued. I don't think it is TOTALLY reversed but it does get better.

I don't feel I am killing myself with one or two low dose cycles a year but, nontheless, the risk is there. These proffesional BB's who are in the top elite use amounts of AAS and GH that boggle the mind and they virtually never go off. The damage to their hearts is almost certain.

LMG2701 - Does your doctor know of your AAS use? If he does, he might be amenable to giving you a CT scan or something to see if you have an enlarged heart. If you do, I would stop all AAS and GH use pronto and never pick them up again.

Bro, nice reply..what is a CT scan? what other "TESTS" should an AAS user do for the body?

[spidey]

A CT scan is a way of imaging soft tissue. X-rays are really only good for looking at bone structure; the soft tissue doesn't show up well or at all. MRI is another (more detailed) way to image soft tissue but it is much more expensive than CT.

I am not suggesting that all AAS users should run out and demand a CT scan. I am just telling LMG that if he is worried about his heart and with the familial history of heart disease, his doctor might agree to find out if his heart is enlarged.

LMG - one last thing: You should wait at least 10 to 12 weeks after stopping all AAS and GH before getting that CT scan (or whatever). As I mentioned before, AAS induced cardiac hypertrophy may be partly reversed upon ceasing the drugs. You want a true picture of the state of your heart, not an artificially enlarged one. Give the reversal time to happen and THEN get the picture. Then you will have a better idea of the TRUE state of your heart.

[Lmg2701]

Thanks for the advice spidey. I'm currently preparing for a show and there's a good number of substances I'm using to get me ready, you can look at my contest journal thread to be exact. After this run of comps. though I think I will do just that, wait 3 or 4 months and then see about getting a CT Scan, if for nothing else, it'll at least give me some peace of mind.

[spidey]

Actually, I thought a little more about it and I think I have some better advice.

What REALLY matters is heart function; not heart size. Athletes in general tend to have enlarged hearts. It is a different type of cardiac hypertrophy and isn't considered pathologic as it doesn't affect heart function.

You could have your ejection fraction measured. I am unsure exactly how this is done but I know it is done routinely in cardiac patients. Ejection fraction is the amount of blood your heart pumps out with one beat. This is a better measure of function than heart size. With pathological enlargening of the heart, ejection fraction is diminished and this is what leads to problems later on. Anyway, talk it over with your doctor and see what he or she recommends.

[Stonecold54]

Good thread....Health is often overlooked. I myself have stopped high dose cycles.

[joe bigboy]

yea good thread, i too have kinda cut back the dosages over the past couple years

[Face]

Originally posted by spidey
Actually, I thought a little more about it and I think I have some better advice.

What REALLY matters is heart function; not heart size. Athletes in general tend to have enlarged hearts. It is a different type of cardiac hypertrophy and isn't considered pathologic as it doesn't affect heart function.

You could have your ejection fraction measured. I am unsure exactly how this is done but I know it is done routinely in cardiac patients. Ejection fraction is the amount of blood your heart pumps out with one beat. This is a better measure of function than heart size. With pathological enlargening of the heart, ejection fraction is diminished and this is what leads to problems later on. Anyway, talk it over with your doctor and see what he or she recommends.

Hi, I think that ejection fraction is measured with either echocardiogram or cardiac catheterisation; echo is not invasive at all, and its the standard check on the heart for hypertrophy, valve/flow problems etc.

[GreekTank]

Very good thread! indeed, it must be pointed out that certain risks are accompanied with AAS use. A lot of people are getting into this game without the proper reason in my opinion

[bigkid]

I'm an echo tech, an ultrasound is done to measure ejection fraction. It is the difference of the area of the left ventricle in diastole (relaxation) and systole (contraction) normal is anything above 50%. If you have hypertrophy (thickened LV wall muscle) it is reversable so don't freak. I should know I did an echo last year on myself and immedately stopped the TREN! That's what did it i'm sure of it, also check your BP this is another factor of LVH (left ventricular hypertrophy) Any increase in blood pressure will in turn increase the pressure inside your heart making it work harder thus hypertrophy occurs. with all that said get some blood work done and a bp check then go from there, if you have any questions feel free to ask!

[clix]

Originally posted by bigkid
I'm an echo tech, an ultrasound is done to measure ejection fraction. It is the difference of the area of the left ventricle in diastole (relaxation) and systole (contraction) normal is anything above 50%. If you have hypertrophy (thickened LV wall muscle) it is reversable so don't freak. I should know I did an echo last year on myself and immedately stopped the TREN! That's what did it i'm sure of it, also check your BP this is another factor of LVH (left ventricular hypertrophy) Any increase in blood pressure will in turn increase the pressure inside your heart making it work harder thus hypertrophy occurs. with all that said get some blood work done and a bp check then go from there, if you have any questions feel free to ask!

you can also get right av enlargement as well and pulmonary embolisms.

I did 3 cycles over the last 2 years - nothing major - the biggest being a 5 month 600 test and 600 deca - and the last being 300 test and 300 eq.

many of these drugs will cause an increase in the volume of the plasma as well as a thickening of the blood which makes it harder to pump and can lead to clotting.

I had decided to stop since I reached my goals - so I went in for "the works" physical like most on these boards recommend when discontinuing aas use - to make sure I did not have anything to be handled. I needed one any way since I am 38 - so I considered it my 40 year old physical - I just moved it up a couple.

well - I had an echo done and they told me everything looked great except I had a silghtly enlarged rv. then they sent me for a trans esophogeal echo - this is where they put you to sleep and insert a echo device down your throat so they can get a better look at your heart and associated arteries and veins without having to shoot energy through mucle and bone in your chest. they told me they confirmed it - but that it was barely above the average measurements - so it was no big deal.

It was most likely due to aas in my opinion and i am sure it has shrunk back to the normal range by now - however it will never be what it was.

I shudder at what is going in the anatomy of some of my friends who are heavy users. as has been said many times before - moderation moderation moderation and rest and time off.

these are serious drugs that cause a large amount of physilogical altering issues.

I am basicaly back to normal - but heh - I am even battling a case of gyno that came on 5 months after I was off - go figure - it has been painful and irritating. finally got it under control in the last couple of weeks - but there are repercussions to use - some are minor inconveniences - and others are life threatening as we have seen. kind of embarrasing to go to your hot 35 year old female doc and tell her you need a breast exam so you can make sure you dont have cancer. I definately got a funny look from her on that one - and then she told me I have gynecomastia and fibrocystic breasts. lovely.

go get your stuff checked out if you are coming off and if you have never had it checked and you have been on a few years - get it checked.

better safe and embarrased than sorry.

[shortz]

Originally posted by spidey
Actually, I thought a little more about it and I think I have some better advice.

What REALLY matters is heart function; not heart size. Athletes in general tend to have enlarged hearts. It is a different type of cardiac hypertrophy and isn't considered pathologic as it doesn't affect heart function.

You could have your ejection fraction measured. I am unsure exactly how this is done but I know it is done routinely in cardiac patients. Ejection fraction is the amount of blood your heart pumps out with one beat. This is a better measure of function than heart size. With pathological enlargening of the heart, ejection fraction is diminished and this is what leads to problems later on. Anyway, talk it over with your doctor and see what he or she recommends.

Actually, what becomes more significant with heart size is not generalized cardiac hypertrophy, but an indication of axis deviation also. This tells us that the hypertrophy is one sided and is a possbile indication of a few things. One would be a past hx of an MI, or heart attack, the other is from blood pressure issues over a period of time. Axis deviation is simply a diagnosis though and you don't really treat the axis deviation, but rather find what has caused it and possibly treat it long term.