Clen vs Ephedra

[infiniti1982]

Caffeine-herbal ephedra combination increases resting energy expenditure, heart rate and blood pressure.

Vukovich MD, Schoorman R, Heilman C, Jacob P 3rd, Benowitz NL.

Applied Physiology Laboratory, Department Health, Physical Education, and Recreation, South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota 57007, USA. [email protected]

1. The purpose of the present study was to determine whether the consumption of an acute dose of caffeine and Ma Huang increases resting energy expenditure (REE), heart rate (HR) and blood pressure (BP) over a 3 h period. 2. A randomized, double-blind cross-over study was performed evaluating the acute effects of caffeine (150 mg)/herbal ephedra (Ma Huang; 20 mg ephedra alkaloids) versus a placebo. A total of eight healthy subjects (four males and four females) with a mean (+/-SD) age of 23.4+/-0.8 years (mean ages for males and females: 25.3+/-0.7 and 22.0+/-0.7 years, respectively) and 22.5+/-3.1% body fat (15.7+/-1.2 and 27.6+/-3.5% body fat for males and females, respectively) were recruited to the study. Participants were moderate caffeine users (approximately 150-300 mg/day). 3. Subjects reported to the laboratory following a 12 h fast and 48 h of a caffeine-free diet. Resting energy expenditure was measured prior to supplementation and for 15 min every 30 min for 3 h following supplementation. Heart rate and BP were obtained every 15 min. Blood samples were obtained every 30 min following the measurement of REE and analysed for caffeine, ephedrine, free fatty acids and glucose. 4. By 3 h, HR was 22.7+/-5.5% higher (P<0.05) than baseline for the caffeine/ephedra trial compared with 8.9+/-2.2% higher for the placebo group. At 3 h, systolic BP was 9.1+/-2.2% higher (P<0.05) than baseline for the caffeine/ephedra trial compared with only 1.9+/-2.9% different from baseline for the placebo trial. There was no effect of the caffeine/ephedra combination on diastolic BP. Resting energy expenditure during the last 30 min was 4.5+/-2.5% higher in the placebo trial and 10.7+/-2.5% higher (P<0.05) in the caffeine/ephedra trial; REE was 8.5 +/- 2.0% higher (P<0.05) in the caffeine/ephedra trial compared with the placebo trial. Free fatty acids increased over time in the placebo and caffeine/ephedra trials (from 0.5+/-0.05 to 0.63+/-0.05 mEq/L and from 0.48+/-0.06L to 0.8+/-0.05 mEq/L, respectively). 5. Caffeine and herbal ephedra, at doses of 150 mg and 20 mg (ephedrine), respectively, result in a significant elevation in REE, HR and BP. Although significant, the increase in energy expenditure is negligible in terms of weight loss. (Interesting...)

How do you guys feel about that last statement? From your own experience, how much does ephedra help you lose weight (beyond its effects on hunger/energy-- I mean training/diet staying constant, how much would ephedra speed up fat loss compared to no ephedra?)

sorry to start another discussion in this thread shibby.

[Shibby]

How do you guys feel about that last statement? From your own experience, how much does ephedra help you lose weight (beyond its effects on hunger/energy-- I mean training/diet staying constant, how much would ephedra speed up fat loss compared to no ephedra?)

sorry to start another discussion in this thread shibby.

Well if we can find the studies that Beefcake knows something about,proving those numbers to be pretty accurate, then that would answer your question.

[infiniti1982]

ive never seen a study on clen (or albuterol or terbutaline for that matter) where it was tested on humans and something about metabolism was researched. I've definitely seen beefcake's numbers around, I'm just not sure where their support comes from.

Here's another study btw (comes close to beef's ephedrine number):

Acute effect of ephedrine on 24-h energy balance.

Shannon JR, Gottesdiener K, Jordan J, Chen K, Flattery S, Larson PJ, Candelore MR, Gertz B, Robertson D, Sun M.

Autonomic Dysfunction Center, AA3228 MCN, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37232-2195, USA.

Ephedrine is used to help achieve weight control. Data on its true efficacy and mechanisms in altering energy balance in human subjects are limited. We aimed to determine the acute effect of ephedrine on 24-h energy expenditure, mechanical work and urinary catecholamines in a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled, two-period crossover study. Ten healthy volunteers were given ephedrine (50 mg) or placebo thrice daily during each of two 24-h periods (ephedrine and placebo) in a whole-room indirect calorimeter, which accurately measures minute-by-minute energy expenditure and mechanical work. Measurements were taken of 24-h energy expenditure, mechanical work, urinary catecholamines and binding of (+/-)ephedrine in vitro to human beta1-, beta2- and beta3-adrenoreceptors. Twenty-four-hour energy expenditure was 3.6% greater (8965+/-1301 versus 8648+/-1347 kJ, P<0.05) with ephedrine than with placebo, but mechanical work was not different between the ephedrine and placebo periods. Noradrenaline excretion was lower with ephedrine (0.032+/-0.011 microg/mg creatinine) compared with placebo (0.044+/-0.012 microg/mg creatinine) (P<0.05). (+/-)Ephedrine is a relatively weak partial agonist of human beta1- and beta2-adrenoreceptors, and had no detectable activity at human beta3-adrenoreceptors. Ephedrine (50 mg thrice daily) modestly increases energy expenditure in normal human subjects. A lack of binding of ephedrine to beta3-adrenoreceptors and the observed decrease in urinary noradrenaline during ephedrine treatment suggest that the thermogenic effect of ephedrine results from direct beta1-/beta2-adrenoreceptor agonism. An indirect beta3-adrenergic effect through the release of noradrenaline seems unlikely as urinary noradrenaline decreased significantly with ephedrine.


and i thought this was kinda cool (if only we were obese rhesus monkeys):

Energy expenditure, body composition, and glucose metabolism in lean and obese rhesus monkeys treated with ephedrine and caffeine.

Ramsey JJ, Colman RJ, Swick AG, Kemnitz JW.

Wisconsin Regional Primate Research Center, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53715-1299, USA.

The administration of ephedrine and caffeine (E+C) has been proposed to promote weight loss by increasing energy expenditure and decreasing food intake. We tested this hypothesis in six lean (4-9% body fat) and six mildly to moderately obese (13-44% body fat) monkeys studied during a 7-wk control period, an 8-wk drug treatment period, and a 7-wk placebo period. During the drug treatment period, the monkeys were given ephedrine (6 mg) and caffeine (50 mg) orally three times per day. At the end of each period, a glucose tolerance test was performed, energy expenditure was measured, and body composition was determined. Treatment with E+C resulted in a decrease in body weight in the obese animals (P = 0.06). This loss in weight was primarily the result of a 19% reduction in body fat. Drug treatment also resulted in a decrease in body fat in the lean group (P = 0.05). Food intake was reduced by E+C only in the obese group (P < 0.05). Nighttime energy expenditure was increased by 21% (P < 0.03) in the obese group and 24% (P < 0.01) in the lean group with E+C treatment. Twenty-four-hour energy expenditure was higher in both groups during drug treatment. E+C did not produce systematic changes in glucoregulatory variables, whereas plasma leptin concentrations decreased in both groups with drug treatment. Overall, these results show that E+C treatment can promote weight loss through an increase in energy expenditure, or in some individuals, a combination of an increase in energy expenditure and a decrease in food intake.

[infiniti1982]

wait....

i just realized that first study i posted about the 3.6% increase in REE was for ephedrine (and a hell of a lot of it) only. They didn't use caffeine with it and I believe that this omission significantly decreases the effectiveness of the drug in terms of weight loss.

[Karde]

Thanks for that glowalla

[beefcake]

That's a perfect answer. Do you think you kind find where these numbers came from?

I saw the numbers in an article on basskiller's site, however there were no real studies to reference it from. I'll try to look around and see if there's any real hard data to back it up.