Proviron. Why is this not talked about more?

[Deacon]

Did you mean estrogen? Masteron and proviron pretty much are DHT correct?

ya my brain and fingers were not together on that one when typing

[beefcake]

Proviron is not a SERM, it is an AI.

True. I had clomid on the brain for some reason.

[beefcake]

did someone state that provi and nolva creates progesterone? I don't see how that is possible

and I have always understood that estro and progesterone were totally seperate issues controlled by different parts of the body - I have never heard that estro must be present for progesterone issues to occur

I had always heard that in order for progesterone to cause gyno, there must be estradiol present. I assume that's why most say that deca isn't a problem unless you're stacking test with it. Makes me wonder if the abortion pill would work for progesterone since it acts like a serm for the receptor.

[Deacon]

here is some clinical explanations by L RHEA - kind of confucing but he does mention estro to a small extent;


Prolactin Control


*In opposition to what we normally see with all of the other pituitary hormones, the hypothalamus predominantly suppresses prolactin release from the pituitary gland. In other words, there is usually a hypothalamic "Stop that" order set against the lactotroph, and prolactin is released only when the order is released or ended.

A note of interest is that if the pituitary stalk is severed, prolactin release increases, while secretion of all the other pituitary hormones decreases dramatically due to loss of hypothalamic releasing hormones. But this is an unlikely scenario for most athletes and should obviously be avoided nonetheless.

The neurotransmitter Dopamine appears to act as the top dog prolactin-inhibiting factor. Dopamine is secreted into portal blood by the hypothalamic neurons. Next it binds to receptors on lactotrophs, and inhibits both the synthesis and release of prolactin. So chemicals and drugs that interfere with dopamine release or receptor binding also increase the release of prolactin. These are called antagonists. Drugs and chemicals that either increase, act as, or potentate dopamine are agonists.

Of course there are other chemicals in the body's Action/Reaction Factor closet that positively regulate prolactin. The major ones are GnRH, TRH (thyroid Releasing Hormone) and VIP (Vasoactive Intestinal Polypeptide). By the way, hyper-stimulation of the nipples may have a stimulatory effect upon prolactin release as well. But that is one we will leave alone.


So, Why Do Non-Cross Dressing Men Produce Prolactin?


*As a man ages his body begins to decrease the amount of androgens that it synthesizes. In fact many studies have shown that an average 40-year-old male produces about half of the testosterone that he did when he was 18. So, he possesses a lower rate of muscle anabolism yet a higher rate of fat anabolism.

Many researches have claimed that this is due to normal physiological changes that occur as we progress through the years. In truth this is bullshit and supposition based upon average sedimentary individuals. I monitor the physiological indicators of athletes for a living. I can say conclusively that almost any otherwise healthy male that remains in peak condition and eats a proper diet will retain a superior androgen production profile. So this is more so a matter of choice than pre-programmed physiological events. With that said let's get on with the "why" of prolactin.

Estrogen is a primary promoter of prolactin release. Of course there are other factors to consider (which we will discuss in a moment) that may trigger excessive prolactin secretion, but the normal trend toward increased prolactin release is due to increased estrogen synthesis.


More Action/Reaction


The clinical term for excessive release of prolactin is hyperprolactinemia. It is actually a relatively common disorder in humans, especially those who utilize AAS. There are many causes that initiate the condition including prolactin-secreting tumors and therapy with certain drugs.

Males that experience hyperprolactinemia commonly develop hypogonadism (the shut down of the HPTA) with decreased sperm production, decreased sex-drive and impotence. Those affected normally show breast enlargement (gynecomastia), but very rarely actually lactate.

The gyno can initially manifest itself as an increase in fatty tissue under the lower pectorals and a puffy appearance to the areola and nipple prior to formation of the painful benign (usually) tumors.

A simple blood test for serum prolactin levels is commonly employed to evaluate the degree of potential feminization a male can or is experiencing. The lab results are quite simple to read, though a trained professional should interpret the results.

[beefcake]

The gyno can initially manifest itself as an increase in fatty tissue under the lower pectorals and a puffy appearance to the areola and nipple prior to formation of the painful benign (usually) tumors.

More reason to put proviron in your stack. Most people are probably developing gyno and not thinking about it until they start to feel the pain. By then it's already started to develop.

[Bouncer]

did someone state that provi and nolva creates progesterone? I don't see how that is possible

and I have always understood that estro and progesterone were totally seperate issues controlled by different parts of the body - I have never heard that estro must be present for progesterone issues to occur

Iron Bull said that Nolv and a DHT based steroid such as Proviron is a no no. Maybe he mis typed or I misunderstood. I have read many "theory's" that progesterone induced gyno cannot form if there is no estrogen available.

[Bouncer]

More reason to put proviron in your stack. Most people are probably developing gyno and not thinking about it until they start to feel the pain. By then it's already started to develop.

Problem is I have been running Proviron since the start of this cycle and my nips got sensitive faster then usual. Adding in the nolv hasnt seemed to work much in the last week. Usually when I add in nolv, all problems are gone in a week. One has to wonder is proviron playing a role here. This is no shit proviron from some UG lab either. This is shering brand proviron.

I am going to do a little experiment and drop the proviron for a few weeks. Then I am going to start it back up. If the sensitive nips come back once I start the proviron the only conclusion to draw is that in me at least, proviron may actually contribute in some way to gyno. Should be interesting, I will let you guys know how it goes.


DADAWG may be on to something also, maybe somehow the proviron is making the sides from test worse because there is more free test floating around due to the proviron.

This has turned into a pretty interesting thread and I am the damn guinea pig! lol

[al the chemist]

bouncer, have you taken proviron previously with the same type of sides?...seems like you have covered your basis with estrogen gyno, and it is highly unlikely that you would see progesterone related side effects with the cycle presented. One interesting note that i did read that proviron can convert to 5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol, when dht levels are too high. Maybe that is contributing to the gyno?

[Bouncer]

bouncer, have you taken proviron previously with the same type of sides?...seems like you have covered your basis with estrogen gyno, and it is highly unlikely that you would see progesterone related side effects with the cycle presented. One interesting note that i did read that proviron can convert to 5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol, when dht levels are too high. Maybe that is contributing to the gyno?

never used proviron bro. question though, how can DHT contribute to gyno. DHT does not convert to estrogen or progesterone in any way.

[beefcake]

If it is the proviron, only thing I can think of is that since your body sees that it already has enough dht, it's not producing more alpha reductase enzymes, so therefore most of your testosterone is going to be wanted to be converted into estrogen rather than dht. Proviron is only a mild anti-e, which makes me wonder what's your dose of nolva. And also is this nolvadex or is it a research company brand of tamoxifen citrate?

[Bouncer]

If it is the proviron, only thing I can think of is that since your body sees that it already has enough dht, it's not producing more alpha reductase enzymes, so therefore most of your testosterone is going to be wanted to be converted into estrogen rather than dht. Proviron is only a mild anti-e, which makes me wonder what's your dose of nolva. And also is this nolvadex or is it a research company brand of tamoxifen citrate?

Its Hexal brand nolvadex, the best.

dose is 40mg, started at 20mg last week and just bumped it up yesterday.

the one problem I see with your theory is that I have gotten pretty damn lean in the last 2 weeks while using the proviron. my abs are cut much deeper then 2 weeks ago. that makes me think that i cant have to much estrogen floating around as I would tend to hold fat and water.

[beefcake]

Its Hexal brand nolvadex, the best.

dose is 40mg, started at 20mg last week and just bumped it up yesterday.

the one problem I see with your theory is that I have gotten pretty damn lean in the last 2 weeks while using the proviron. my abs are cut much deeper then 2 weeks ago. that makes me think that i cant have to much estrogen floating around as I would tend to hold fat and water.

I'm sure it's not a lot, but I guess theres some that's binding to the receptor before the nolva does. You're not prone to gyno either so i'm anxious to see what happens when you cut out the prov.

[Deacon]

this is a very interesting case here - I do not think it is the provi nor do I think it is prolactin related

what exactly are your symptoms right now? I have another idea but I need to get your latest symptoms first

[Bouncer]

I'm sure it's not a lot, but I guess theres some that's binding to the receptor before the nolva does. You're not prone to gyno either so i'm anxious to see what happens when you cut out the prov.

well i kinda am prone bro. i have had to run nolv with other test cycles before but like i said, the sensative nips seemed to come on very quickly with this cycle. also, after a week the nolv hasnt had much effect, granted it was a low dose but..

anyway, ya, it will be interesting. i am thinking that in some way, the proviron is not letting the nolv do its job, kinda of like competing with it. that is just pure theory though, no science behind it.

[Bouncer]

this is a very interesting case here - I do not think it is the provi nor do I think it is prolactin related

what exactly are your symptoms right now? I have another idea but I need to get your latest symptoms first

sensitive left nip and sensitive right nip with small bump starting to form. it is definitely the start of gyno, no question. what do you think it may be?