Sustanon250 + Insulin Cycle

[Rauschenberg MD]

Hey there.
I'm looking to run a bulking cycle with Sustanon250 (Omnadren) and some Insulin. It should look something like that:

1-12w: Sustanon250 500mg every Monday
1-12w: Arimidex 0.25mg e3d
PCT:
Aromasin - 1-4w: 25 mg/eod 4-8w: 12.5 mg/eod
Triptorelin (GnRH) Single 100mcg shot no Day 1 after the last Sust250 pin

3 IUs Insulin Humalog, PWO (w/ 50g protein, 10g glutamine, 10g creatine, 21g Dextrose) for 10 weeks

Please evaluate, your opinion and experience will be greatly appreciated.

P.S.
I'm thinking of adding some TB500 as well. What do you think ? Thanks.

[Mr I]

I thought slin had to be ran with gh also

[Rauschenberg MD]

While they could be used in a synergistic fashion, I wouldn't. Guts are highly sensitive to this combination because of the densely populated IGF-1 receptors and adding an androgen is a recipe for Cardiomegaly.

[Mr I]

While they could be used in a synergistic fashion, I wouldn't. Guts are highly sensitive to this combination because of the densely populated IGF-1 receptors and adding an androgen is a recipe for Cardiomegaly.

Interesting, can you elaborate on the cardiomegely thing

[Rauschenberg MD]

Don't want to turn the topic into a discussion on mixing androgens and growth factors. However if you look up "growth hormone" at pubmed you'll find all the studies you need. If you still can't find what you are looking for, I'll help as I did a study on growth factor-induced cardiomegaly a few months ago.

As for TB500 I think I might try this protocol:

Wk1 - 5mg
Wk2 - 2.5mg
Wk3 - 2.5mg
Wk4 - 2mg
Wk5 - 2mg

Any ideas whether TB500 is compatible with insulin or not or whether this protocol will be any effective ?

[Mr I]

Bro you can't drop a bomb like that and walk away, we know our shit here, androgens and gh is what a whole bunch of people run here and you slight that out might be responsible for cardiac issues!

Potential left ventricular thickening is nothing new but if there's something new then share it, in another thread if need be. Don't ask for help then withhold your own.

And what is tb500 now?

[Rauschenberg MD]

Hey easy man,
what's with the attitude ?

I know a lot of people are using Androgens and Growth Factors together. That doesn't mean it's right and I'm ready to back it up, not because I want to prove myself but because I don't want anyone to get hurt. This is not about potential left ventricular thickening. It's about pathological collagen deposition. Quote from wiki:

"Cardiac hypertrophy (Münzer's heart weighed 636g; a normal man's heart usually weighs 300–350g - I'd argue with this. A normal man's heart usually weighs between 190 and 250 g)"

Context

Since the eighties scientists have been discussing whether steroids enlarge the heart, when several sports investigators learned steroid use was associated with enlargement of the left ventricular mass – the part of the heart that pumps oxygenated blood through the body. An overdeveloped left ventricle causes arrhythmia and, in severe cases, death. In 2001 Australian physicians found the hypertrophy in clean strength athletes and postulated that this condition was caused by weight training, not steroid use. They also found that the hypertrophy didn’t impair their subjects’ health.

The new Finnish study, published in the International Journal of Sports Medicine in the summer of 2003, doesn’t contradict the Australian study. Nevertheless, it provides insight into the relationship between anabolic substances and heart hypertrophy.

Study

The Finnish ran an advertorial in a bodybuilding magazine on their project. Twenty bodybuilders, who had planned to do a cycle and bought their medication on the black market, responded. Before their cycle started the bodybuilders had their medication checked and analysed by the pharmacological department of the university. Not unnecessary, because up to fifty percent of the European black steroids may be counterfeited, according to the latest estimates.

Sixteen bodybuilders used steroids only. The weekly doses varied from a few hundred milligrams to more than thousand milligrams.

Four athletes stacked their steroids with growth hormone. All four used moderate dosages of two, three or four IU’s during four to six weeks. The growth hormone was injected once daily, mostly in the evening. In this group steroid doses were 1,3 times higher than in the steroids only group.

When their cycles ended, the bodybuilders had their hearts examined. The table below summarizes some results. The control group consisted of fifteen young males with active life styles who didn’t engage in weight training.

Results

Steroids and the combination of steroids and growth hormone change the structure of the heart, the table suggests. But that doesn’t have any consequences for the cardiovascular health of at least the steroid users. Their diastolic blood pressure – reported to rise phenomenally in some steroid related medical horror-stories – was fine, and more interestingly, their E/A ratio improved. Cardiologists use the E/A ratio to measure the hearts efficiency. According to the table, in the steroids only group deterioration of the heart muscle didn’t occur.

But growth hormone, well, that is another story. The table speaks for itself. The higher steroid doses that the GH-users took can only explain a small part of the serious ventricular hypertrophy, the Finnish stress. They suspect that the lowering effect of androgens on the IGF-1-binding protein 3 concentrations causes the ventricular growth.

Discussion

So far not so good. But there is more. The Finnish discovered something very interesting about the nature of the relationship between anabolic aids and hypertrophy of the heart: it’s direct. For example, the Finnish asked their subjects for how many years they had been using steroids. The answers varied from one to twelve years. Statistically the relationship between lifetime steroid use and the E/A ratio was weak. On the other hand, the mean steroid dose of the present cycle was a strong predictor of variables like E/A ratio, ventricular weight of relative wall thickness.

This means that cycles don’t have a cumulative effect on heart hypertrophy. The Finnish discovered that even the pronounced impact of cycles with added growth hormone wears off. That became evident when they investigated an athlete three times: when he just finished a five weeks cycle of steroids and growth hormone, after a wash out period of 237 days, and just after he completed a steroids only cycle. The results are in the figure below.

E/A Ratio and RWT

Of course a study with twenty users is not conclusive. But the study suggests that

just like the Australians proved before, steroids are not as disastrous for the heart morphology as some agencies want you to believe;
the combination with growth hormone does however add considerable cardiovascular risks to steroid cycles; and
the deleterious effects wear off during wash out periods.

Especially athletes in their late thirties and older should take their wash out periods seriously. The age of the subjects in the Finnish study ranged from 25 to 43. In this population age was the strongest predictor of the E/A ratio. The older they were, the lower their ratio ratio. (The Pearson’s correlation coefficient was –0.70. The coefficient of mean steroid dose and E/A ratio was –0.42.)

Reference 2: Androgenic anabolic steroids and arterial structure and function in male bodybuilders.

Reference 3: Doping with growth hormone (GH) is a well-known problem both among elite athletes and
among people training at gyms.

Reference 4: Growth Hormone and Sex Steroid Administration in Healthy Aged Women and Men.



P.S.
TB500 is Thymosin Beta 4

[Mr I]

What you need to remember is that igf, gh, test are all naturally present in the body, also atheletes generally often have hearts over 50% the size of their cavity.

[Rauschenberg MD]

What you need to remember is that igf, gh, test are all naturally present in the body, also atheletes generally often have hearts over 50% the size of their cavity.

Thanks for letting me know (lol). Apparently my Biochemistry PhD thesis doesn't mean anything nowadays.

I would suggest that you compare the terms "Athlete's heart" and "Cardiomegaly" in order to understand the difference between functional cardiac hypertrophy and pathological cardiac hypertrophy.

[Mr I]

Thanks for letting me know (lol). Apparently my Biochemistry PhD thesis doesn't mean anything nowadays.

I would suggest that you compare the terms "Athlete's heart" and "Cardiomegaly" in order to understand the difference between functional cardiac hypertrophy and pathological cardiac hypertrophy.

Why you touching androgens then?

[Mr I]

On topic, I think your proposed cycle will just make you fat, without gh

[ROCKETW19]

Hey there.
I'm looking to run a bulking cycle with Sustanon250 (Omnadren) and some Insulin. It should look something like that:

1-12w: Sustanon250 500mg every Monday
1-12w: Arimidex 0.25mg e3d
PCT:
Aromasin - 1-4w: 25 mg/eod 4-8w: 12.5 mg/eod
Triptorelin (GnRH) Single 100mcg shot no Day 1 after the last Sust250 pin

3 IUs Insulin Humalog, PWO (w/ 50g protein, 10g glutamine, 10g creatine, 21g Dextrose) for 10 weeks

Please evaluate, your opinion and experience will be greatly appreciated.

P.S.
I'm thinking of adding some TB500 as well. What do you think ? Thanks.

I dont like it at all.
start with sust has 2 fast esters that will be gone before you week is up and give you a pretty good roller coaster. If you took 250mgs 2 times per week that would be ok in my book. (you will still get some that say inject EOD due to the prop)

and slin at 3iu is just silly to low and even if you took enough WHY. you are no dummy at least you have good papers but if you are not getting on stage trying to go pro BBer than I would never use it. NO NEED FOR IT.

sorry have no clue what TB500 is ( but i would like to know)

I think you are better off with just the test. assuming you are not trying to go pro. what are your stats age goals ect?

[Rauschenberg MD]

Why you touching androgens then?

Erm, that was obviously meant ironically...

On topic, I think your proposed cycle will just make you fat, without gh

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I'll keep that in mind.

I dont like it at all.
start with sust has 2 fast esters that will be gone before you week is up and give you a pretty good roller coaster. If you took 250mgs 2 times per week that would be ok in my book. (you will still get some that say inject EOD due to the prop)

and slin at 3iu is just silly to low and even if you took enough WHY. you are no dummy at least you have good papers but if you are not getting on stage trying to go pro BBer than I would never use it. NO NEED FOR IT.

sorry have no clue what TB500 is ( but i would like to know)

I think you are better off with just the test. assuming you are not trying to go pro. what are your stats age goals ect?

You are right about Sustanon. I decided to shoot 250mg/e3d.

Slin will be 5 IUs pre-workout with 50g dextrose, and followed by (50g protein, 10g creatine and glutamine, 30 g dextrose) shake post workout.
To answer your question, I want to use Insulin because of its superiority to any known chemical used in bodybuilding. This ain't no first cycle, I'm aware of all potential issues that come with recreational insulin usage. You'll be amazed how much people use Insulin nowadays. It's just an exotic hormone that if used properly makes everything much easier and if you are stupid you could die.

TB500 is Thymosin Beta 4 as noted in an upper post of mine.

[Mr I]

Well you seem to know everything lol! Just keep in mind a phd only goes so far and is generally orientated to other than bodybuilding, guys like me have 20 years experience as have plenty others on here

[Rauschenberg MD]

Well you seem to know everything lol! Just keep in mind a phd only goes so far and is generally orientated to other than bodybuilding, guys like me have 20 years experience as have plenty others on here

That's why I posted here because I respect your practice and experience. Don't get me wrong, I do. I just didn't understand that sudden offensive attitude.