Fina conversion using BA & BB?

[GATOR]

I have a question about the quantities here. How do you know how much BA and BB will keep it in solution?

critique my chem:

lets assume you want your tren at 75mg/ml and you want 100ml of it......so you need 7.5 g of tren. assume a delta-v of .85, the powder will displace 6.375 ml. I f you use 3%BA and 15%BB to hold the solution then you will be left with 75.63 ml of oil. However, the problem is I don't know if this wil works from the pellets, or do I need tren powder(crystal)

[spidey]

It would be easier to extract the tren acetate from the pellets with acetone, filter to remove methyl cellulose binder and evaporate acetone. You will be left with mainly tren acetate powder.

[GATOR]

How much acetone do you use? Is this the same method by Notacow on Basskillers site......where he uses MA to covert the pellets to crystal? Thanx buddy

[candle25]

Originally posted by spidey
It would be easier to extract the tren acetate from the pellets with acetone, filter to remove methyl cellulose binder and evaporate acetone. You will be left with mainly tren acetate powder.

Most everyone uses MeOH. Why do you suggest Acetone? Better evaporation?

[GATOR]

How much MeOH? and is it harmful if it is not completely evaporated? How long does it take to evaporate and how do you know that it is all gone?

[spidey]

Originally posted by GATOR
How much acetone do you use? Is this the same method by Notacow on Basskillers site......where he uses MA to covert the pellets to crystal? Thanx buddy

No specific amount; just "enough". Crush up the pellets and cover with acetone. swirl for maybe 5 minutes and filter. wash the filter with 2 or 3 portions of acetone or until the acetone coming through the filter is not yellow. You should be left with white methyl cellulose in the filter and a dark yellow, clear actone solution.

Originally posted by candle25
Most everyone uses MeOH. Why do you suggest Acetone? Better evaporation?

MeoH is toxic and acetone is not as bad. Also, acetone is a better solvent for tren and it evaporates faster.

Originally posted by GATOR
How much MeOH? and is it harmful if it is not completely evaporated? How long does it take to evaporate and how do you know that it is all gone?

It is very toxic and is absolutely harmful if not completely evaporated. MeOH poisening can cause blindness and death. It has very little odor so it is difficult to tell when it is all evaporated.

BTW, Never put tren powder wet with MeOH or acetone in the oven to dry faster or you may have a fuel air explosion.

[GATOR]

Thanx spidey. You're a PhD for a reason, you know your stuff.

[candle25]

Doctor Spidey ;). How about not using MeOH or Acetone?
Methed by Chemo:

Homebrew Fina without the kit

Purpose:
To dispel the myth of having to purchase a kit for fina conversion.

Items Needed:
1. Oil of choice (cottonseed, peanut, sesame, vegetable, etc.)
2. Benzyl alcohol
- bacteriostatic agent and solvent
3. Benzyl benzoate
- cosolvent that helps to alleviate crystallization at the depot
4. 2 syringe needles
5. 1 .45 um sterile syringe filter
6. 1 syringe (30 mL or larger)
7. 1 vial (25 mL or large, preferably sterile)
8. Fina

Procedure:
1. Take ~50 mL of oil and heat in the microwave until hot. This is done to sterilize the oil to be used. You can use a small Pyrex dish (with cover) from Wal-mart, large shot glass, etc. Be careful when removing because it will burn. After removal immediately cover (with saran wrap, plastic lid, etc.) to maintain some degree of sterility.

2. With the oil still warm (not hot) mix 30 mL of 5% benzyl alcohol, 15-20% benzyl benzoate, and 75-80% sterile oil.
i.e. - 1.5 mL BA + 6 mL BB + 22.5 mL oil = 30 mL of BA/BB/oil
A syringe may by used to measure the amounts with great convenience.

3. Use 10 mL of this solution to soak and crush the pellets. If this is done quickly the solution may still be warm and aid in extraction. If not, gently heat may help. Simply boil a pot off water, remove the water from the heat, and swirl the fina pellets/BA/BB/oil mix around for a few minutes.

4. Allow to settle and remove the layer of oil. Don’t worry about getting ALL the oil. It is more important to keep from sucking up the sediment at the bottom. Place this oil into a sterilized container (big shot glass that has been microwaved) and cover.

5. Use an additional 10 mL of the BA/BB/sterile oil mix and repeat steps 3 & 4.

6. After adding the oil mix and extracting 2 times you may want to dump the sludge into a coffee filter and gently squeeze to remove additional fina.

7. There should be a combined ~ 20 mL of BA/BB/oil/fina in the sterilized shot glass now. Suck all this up in the syringe and measure what you have. If it is less than 20 mL add more oil (from step #1) until it is EXACTLY 20 mL. If you have 20 on the dot don’t worry about adding any more.

8. Sterile filter this 20 mL into a vented vial.

9. Get an additional 5 mL of oil (from step #1) and send it through the filter as well. This flushes the good stuff out of the filter (purging). You now have 25 mL of good stuff TOTAL in the vial.

10. While still vented, heat the vial in the oven at 200 degrees for 30 minutes. Remove and allow to cool. Do this a total of 3 times.

11. After it has cooled, ENJOY 76-80 mg/mL OF HOMEBREWED GOODNESS!

Some helpful hints:

It is best to be as clean as possible when making homebrew injectables. BA and the heating step at the end go a long way for sterilization but cannot stand up to a slob.

Use the BB. Homebrew injectables have a long standing history with BA alone but it is miscible with water. After injection the BA leaves the depot site which is not too bad if using a long chain ester. Fina has an acetate (2 carbons long) and tends to crystallize at the depot without a solvent or cosolvent = PAIN. The BA leaves the depot after injection but the BB hangs around to keep the fina in solution = LESS PAIN. I have prepared 200 mg/mL and the pain is less than 100 mg/mL with just BA...I can tell by the cows moo

For those familiar with kits notice that these are basically the same steps. The only difference is that you now know what “magic ingredients” are in the magic solution…BA + BB (bacteriostatic agent / solvent / cosolvent).

[GATOR]

Spidey, I'm a bit confused about one thing.....after the fina pellets are soaked in acetone, do you filter it through a coffee filter?
If yes, the stuff that remains in the filter(white methyl cellulose) is garbage, right? So the acetone soluton that you now have contains the tren and should be dark yellow and clear? So at this point, the acetone should be left to fully evaporate, and you will be left with white crystals(tren) right? But where do you put the acetone solution to evaporate, in a vial? How do you then extract all the crystals, and how long does it take for acetone to fully evaporate(8hrs, 24hrs)?

[spidey]

Originally posted by candle25
Doctor Spidey ;). How about not using MeOH or Acetone?
Methed by Chemo:

Homebrew Fina without the kit

Purpose:
To dispel the myth of having to purchase a kit for fina conversion.

Items Needed:
1. Oil of choice (cottonseed, peanut, sesame, vegetable, etc.)
2. Benzyl alcohol
- bacteriostatic agent and solvent
3. Benzyl benzoate
- cosolvent that helps to alleviate crystallization at the depot
4. 2 syringe needles
5. 1 .45 um sterile syringe filter
6. 1 syringe (30 mL or larger)
7. 1 vial (25 mL or large, preferably sterile)
8. Fina

Procedure:
1. Take ~50 mL of oil and heat in the microwave until hot. This is done to sterilize the oil to be used. You can use a small Pyrex dish (with cover) from Wal-mart, large shot glass, etc. Be careful when removing because it will burn. After removal immediately cover (with saran wrap, plastic lid, etc.) to maintain some degree of sterility.

Heating is a poor way to insure sterility and covering with seran wrap will do NOTHING (except maybe melt the seran wrap) since the seran wrap itself is not sterile.

Originally posted by candle25
2. With the oil still warm (not hot) mix 30 mL of 5% benzyl alcohol, 15-20% benzyl benzoate, and 75-80% sterile oil.
i.e. - 1.5 mL BA + 6 mL BB + 22.5 mL oil = 30 mL of BA/BB/oil
A syringe may by used to measure the amounts with great convenience.

3. Use 10 mL of this solution to soak and crush the pellets. If this is done quickly the solution may still be warm and aid in extraction. If not, gently heat may help. Simply boil a pot off water, remove the water from the heat, and swirl the fina pellets/BA/BB/oil mix around for a few minutes.

I doubt this would efficiently extract the tren ac. It has a rather poor solubility in oil. It is better to dissolve the tren in the BA and BB alone and then dilute with oil.

Originally posted by candle25
4. Allow to settle and remove the layer of oil. Don’t worry about getting ALL the oil. It is more important to keep from sucking up the sediment at the bottom. Place this oil into a sterilized container (big shot glass that has been microwaved) and cover.

Again, heating is a poor way to insure sterility. Staph spores (for instance) can withstand the heat or even chemical agents like bleach. The tiny amount of BA in the mixture won't do jack against spores.

Originally posted by candle25
5. Use an additional 10 mL of the BA/BB/sterile oil mix and repeat steps 3 & 4.

6. After adding the oil mix and extracting 2 times you may want to dump the sludge into a coffee filter and gently squeeze to remove additional fina.

7. There should be a combined ~ 20 mL of BA/BB/oil/fina in the sterilized shot glass now. Suck all this up in the syringe and measure what you have. If it is less than 20 mL add more oil (from step #1) until it is EXACTLY 20 mL. If you have 20 on the dot don’t worry about adding any more.

8. Sterile filter this 20 mL into a vented vial.

0.45 micron filter is not small enough to filter out spores. Filter with a 0.2 micron filter to insure complete sterility.

Originally posted by candle25
9. Get an additional 5 mL of oil (from step #1) and send it through the filter as well. This flushes the good stuff out of the filter (purging). You now have 25 mL of good stuff TOTAL in the vial.

10. While still vented, heat the vial in the oven at 200 degrees for 30 minutes. Remove and allow to cool. Do this a total of 3 times.

Not a good idea for two reasons: 1) As mentioned before, it doesn't sterilize effectively. 2) Tren is susceptable to air oxidation and heat will speed up that process. Heating will actually degrade some of the tren.

Originally posted by candle25
11. After it has cooled, ENJOY 76-80 mg/mL OF HOMEBREWED GOODNESS!

Some helpful hints:

It is best to be as clean as possible when making homebrew injectables. BA and the heating step at the end go a long way for sterilization but cannot stand up to a slob.

Actually, you can be as "slobbish" as you like as long as you filter through a 0.2 micron filter at the end into a sterile vial. Of course, take care not to touch the needle before puncturing the rubber seal and swab the seal with alcohol.

Originally posted by candle25
Use the BB. Homebrew injectables have a long standing history with BA alone but it is miscible with water. After injection the BA leaves the depot site which is not too bad if using a long chain ester. Fina has an acetate (2 carbons long) and tends to crystallize at the depot without a solvent or cosolvent = PAIN. The BA leaves the depot after injection but the BB hangs around to keep the fina in solution = LESS PAIN. I have prepared 200 mg/mL and the pain is less than 100 mg/mL with just BA...I can tell by the cows moo

For those familiar with kits notice that these are basically the same steps. The only difference is that you now know what “magic ingredients” are in the magic solution…BA + BB (bacteriostatic agent / solvent / cosolvent).

BA is not miscible with water; only a 4% solution of BA in water can be prepared.

[GATOR]

Originally posted by GATOR
Spidey, I'm a bit confused about one thing.....after the fina pellets are soaked in acetone, do you filter it through a coffee filter?
If yes, the stuff that remains in the filter(white methyl cellulose) is garbage, right? So the acetone soluton that you now have contains the tren and should be dark yellow and clear? So at this point, the acetone should be left to fully evaporate, and you will be left with white crystals(tren) right? But where do you put the acetone solution to evaporate, in a vial? How do you then extract all the crystals, and how long does it take for acetone to fully evaporate(8hrs, 24hrs)?

SPIDEY PLEASE READ THIS. THanx

[spidey]

Originally posted by GATOR
Spidey, I'm a bit confused about one thing.....after the fina pellets are soaked in acetone, do you filter it through a coffee filter?

Yes. Crush the pellets up and cover with acetone. Swirl for 5 minutes or so and then filter (coffee filter). Rinse filter with acetone until the acetone coming through the filter is colorless.

Originally posted by GATOR
If yes, the stuff that remains in the filter(white methyl cellulose) is garbage, right?

Yes.

Originally posted by GATOR
So the acetone soluton that you now have contains the tren and should be dark yellow and clear? So at this point, the acetone should be left to fully evaporate, and you will be left with white crystals(tren) right?

No, the tren acetate crystals will be yellow.

Originally posted by GATOR
But where do you put the acetone solution to evaporate, in a vial?

How about a sauce pan or shallow baking dish?

Originally posted by GATOR
How do you then extract all the crystals, and how long does it take for acetone to fully evaporate(8hrs, 24hrs)?

Just scrape them out of the dish after the acetone evaporates. I don't know exactly how long it will take for the acetone to evaporate. That depends on things like surface area and how much you have to evaporate. Acetone has a distinct odor however. When you sniff the dry solid tren residue in your dish, you will smell any acetone that is still present. I think overnight should do it though.

[candle25]

I don't want to mess up this thread with a debate. I was trying to offer a common way of converting Fina. My understanding is that the initial heating is just extra precaution as the final heating is all that is needed to sterilize. I searched for physical data on trenbolone acetate and only found CAS#10161-34-9 and MF C20H24O3. How do you know that heat degrades tren? It is common practice to bake most any injectible. I'm not saying you're not right, I just can't verify it.

[spidey]

Originally posted by candle25
I don't want to mess up this thread with a debate. I was trying to offer a common way of converting Fina. My understanding is that the initial heating is just extra precaution as the final heating is all that is needed to sterilize. I searched for physical data on trenbolone acetate and only found CAS#10161-34-9 and MF C20H24O3. How do you know that heat degrades tren? It is common practice to bake most any injectible. I'm not saying you're not right, I just can't verify it.

Air oxidation is my hypothesis as to why it gets darker if heated. You can verify it kind of. Take some of your tren solution and split it in half. Heat half in the oven at 250 for an hour or two and leave the other half on the counter at room temp. After an hour, remove the tren from the oven and compare the color to that which was on the counter. Which one is darker colored?

Tren has 3 conjugated double bonds. The more conjugated a compound is, the easier it can be air oxidized. That's just common chemical knowledge. Also, such oxidation products are likely to be darker colored than tren acetate.

When I did my fina, I extracted the tren from the pellets with acetone and then chromatographed it to purify it. You wouldn't believe all the brown shit that was left on the column.

[candle25]

Originally posted by spidey
Air oxidation is my hypothesis as to why it gets darker if heated. You can verify it kind of. Take some of your tren solution and split it in half. Heat half in the oven at 250 for an hour or two and leave the other half on the counter at room temp. After an hour, remove the tren from the oven and compare the color to that which was on the counter. Which one is darker colored?

You do have a point there. I do know that heat will cause a darker coloration. The rest of your points are very sound reasoning as well. Like always, you are brilliant! Thanks Spidey.