Fina conversion using BA & BB?

[Chemo]

Originally posted by spidey
Heating is a poor way to insure sterility and covering with seran wrap will do NOTHING (except maybe melt the seran wrap) since the seran wrap itself is not sterile.

The saran wrap in this method is meant to protect the heated oil from collecting any further dust particles floating in the air. Of course, one could fabricate a quick filtered, positive pressure hood to eliminate this but that is not a majority. For those that don't know, 99% of sterility issues will come from floating particulates in the air. One must take every step possible to reduce this: spray the air with Lysol, use a de-ionizer for a few hours before prep, turn off the air conditioner/heater, etc.

Originally posted by spidey
I doubt this would efficiently extract the tren ac. It has a rather poor solubility in oil. It is better to dissolve the tren in the BA and BB alone and then dilute with oil.

Actually, TA is fairly soluble in oil given the partitioning expected from pellets. I hold that multiple small extractions are always more efficient than one large one. Nonetheless, at the concentrations that most homebrewers are dealing with (75-100 mg/mL) the TA will dissolve easily in plain oil.

Originally posted by spidey
Again, heating is a poor way to insure sterility. Staph spores (for instance) can withstand the heat or even chemical agents like bleach. The tiny amount of BA in the mixture won't do jack against spores.

Heating is a poor method of sterilization except when under pressure. It is well known, however, that rapid heat shocking will neutralize most spores. The temperature variation required to do this is different for each spore but generally speaking dT = 200 should be sufficient. So, it is not the heat but rather the rapid change in temperature that performs the sterilization.

Originally posted by spidey
0.45 micron filter is not small enough to filter out spores. Filter with a 0.2 micron filter to insure complete sterility.

IMO, a .2 micron filter is unacceptable for most as their technique will be less than ideal. This means there will be many times more solid particles that will need to be filtered and that small pore size will clog rapidly (maybe after a few mL's). Now, if one's techique were good at not only extracting but purification this may not weigh heavily and a smaller pore size may work for small volumes. Once again, I stress that this will not be the case for the majority of homebrewers that do not have trainig or experience with these type of methods.

Originally posted by spidey
Not a good idea for two reasons: 1) As mentioned before, it doesn't sterilize effectively. 2) Tren is susceptable to air oxidation and heat will speed up that process. Heating will actually degrade some of the tren.

I disagree that heat, in the magnitude that most will be using, will degrade the structural integrity of TA. Actually, TA is very stable as the triene system offers not only structural rigidity to the molecule but is inherently stable due to the hyperconjugation. Remember, we are talking about multiple sp2-sp3 junction points which further limit the direction of attack for most species that will react, notwithstanding the presence of catalysts. Further, stability is realized due to the fact that the triene system is a combination of tetra- and tr- substitued alklenes.

As for chemical reactivity and spontaneous oxidation, this is impossible without the presence of a multitude of catalysts: HX (acid), NBS, H3PO4, Pt, Mercury(II) acetate/THF, BH3, peroxide, osmium tetraoxide, etc. If one had any one of these reagents in their product then there is more to worry about than just spontaneous oxidation.

Hence, I hold that the triene system is very risilent with respect to structural integrity and spontaneous reactivity.

In addition, the acetone will have a better possibility of reacting with the triene system than it does spontaneously degrading...especially with added heat (as in the extraction step). Hence, the preferred solvent of MeOH. Granted MeOH is rather toxic if ingested but much larger quantities are required for negative sypmtom presentation than what may be left as residue after a properly dried sample.

Originally posted by spidey
Actually, you can be as "slobbish" as you like as long as you filter through a 0.2 micron filter at the end into a sterile vial. Of course, take care not to touch the needle before puncturing the rubber seal and swab the seal with alcohol.

If one were as "slobbish" as they liked the amount of particluate matter in their batch will not filter through the small pore and will clog within a few mL's. However, one could use a .45 pre-filter with an inline .2 filter.

Originally posted by spidey
BA is not miscible with water; only a 4% solution of BA in water can be prepared.

That is an accurate statement for a closed system at equilibrium. However, this is not the case once inside the body. Remember, once injected the body will become the closed system that the equilibrium will be established.

As a quick estimate, let's assume a 7 liter blood volume. This will allow for roughly 280 mL's of BA to partition and another 280 mL's still in depot. That makes for over .5 liters of BA injected before it will stop partitioning due to satisfying the equilibium.

Realistically, the small amount of BA present in a typical homebrew will partition into the systemic circulation rather quickly as it will never reach that equilibrium.

My statement is still valid.

Chemo

[Chemo]

Originally posted by spidey

Tren has 3 conjugated double bonds. The more conjugated a compound is, the easier it can be air oxidized. That's just common chemical knowledge. Also, such oxidation products are likely to be darker colored than tren acetate.

I disagree...

The more conjugated a compound is the more stable it becomes. I hypothesize that it is not chemical reactivity that results in color shift but rather the conformational change in the extremely rigid structure of TA. It does not react for serveral reasons (as outlined above) but may gain sufficient energy from the heating process to allow a higher energy, strained molecular conformation. This would result in a higher energy gap between pi -> pi prime which would shift the Lmax in exactly the same manner as reported.

Further, I hypothesize that if one had the capability of precise temperature control there may be a possibility of slowly lowering the temperature to allow the molecule to assume the lowest energy conformation. So, it may not be the heat that causes the shift in Lmax but rather the rapid decrease "freezing" the higher energy conformation.

Chemo

[Chemo]

As a side note, there have been many reports of acetone extraction with heat resulting in a darker colored product. This is consistent with my theory as the extended conjugation from an extremely electrophilic specie will delocalize the electron density from the triene system thereby allowing for easier conformational change. Of course, with heat this effect will become more evident but this can easily be proven by extracting half the pellets with MeOH and the other half with acetone. Hold all other variables constant (temperature, time at temp, etc) and the product will allow for a comparison of solvent interaction with the molecule.

Assuming there is no chemical reaction between the solvent and reagent then the Lmax shift MUST be attributed to increased conformation stress of the triene system.

Chemo