Do you believe in God and the Bible?

[Puddles]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
Lastly, the Salem Witch Trials, in which many innocent people were burned at the stake, drowned, stoned, etc...all in the pursuit of cleansing the area of witches. Too bad there had been a long stretch of wet weather during that period. You see, the Puritans were actually hallucinating much of it because of a hallucinogenic fungal growth called ergot that became mixed into the rye bread that they ate. Ergot grows on rye in wet seasons and it caused them to see and imagine stuff that wasn't true- they were basically drugged out. In such a religiously repressive society as they had, it didn't take long for their fears to surface as their perception of reality and the trials began. All in the name of religion.

That's interesting. I wonder if similar experiences happened to some of the people who wrote parts of the bible, like Moses. I remember a few drug induced states of my own where I spoke with God and it seemed very real. There were times afterwards that I believed it may have been real but because of the nature of some of the discussions I know it wasn't.

[goliath]

i'll just say one more thing, then i will leave it alone. the perfection argument is valid for another reason, if not the one that i stated originally. In the creation of the universe and man, hate, murder, disease, all follow. would a loving god create all of these horrible things, and not just create them, but create them in his image?
now i'm sure someone will think about free will...we have the will to decide if we murder, rape, steal, etc. to you i ask: does free will really exist? if what the bible says about god knowing and seeing everything, then no, it does not. if god knows your decision before you make it, then your decision is predetermined and is not free at all.

i'm not trying to prove that i am right or wrong...just pointing out contradictions within the very text that a large portion of the world worships. some of you philosophy buffs will see my angle, those of you that take things at face value probably won't.

One's first step in wisdom is to question everything - and one's last is to come to terms with everything. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1742 - 1799)

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by goliath
i'll just say one more thing, then i will leave it alone. the perfection argument is valid for another reason, if not the one that i stated originally. In the creation of the universe and man, hate, murder, disease, all follow. would a loving god create all of these horrible things, and not just create them, but create them in his image?
now i'm sure someone will think about free will...we have the will to decide if we murder, rape, steal, etc. to you i ask: does free will really exist? if what the bible says about god knowing and seeing everything, then no, it does not. if god knows your decision before you make it, then your decision is predetermined and is not free at all.

i'm not trying to prove that i am right or wrong...just pointing out contradictions within the very text that a large portion of the world worships. some of you philosophy buffs will see my angle, those of you that take things at face value probably won't.

One's first step in wisdom is to question everything - and one's last is to come to terms with everything. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1742 - 1799)

me and you actually agree on this subject bro. the difference is, i have a hard time believing that we are here because of some star dust or whatever. what you just said is from the bible. i already said that i dont believe in a book written by a human. i think the person that wrote the bible made it up to be honest. however, i do believe that there is something out there that kind of looks over all of this whatever it may be.

[Bouncer]

You make alot of good points goliath. I think we agree on more then we think. I have always questioned why certain things that happen, happen. Take for example a baby that is born and lives for only a few days or weeks. What was the point of that baby being born? Its hard to believe that if there was a god that he would let something like that happen. Or why a person that always does good and helps everyone, why that person is the one that gets beat to death and killed. Then you have some scumbag that treats people like shit, and they never have to suffer. Its hard to believe that god would let that happen. Or the children in Oklahoma city bombing. Why would god want those kids dead?

I think people that just believe because there mother or church tells them to, I think they are people that are weak. I am able to question but yet still believe that there has to be something out there. Weather it be aliens that made us or whatever.

[goliath]

Originally posted by THE BOUNCER
I think people that just believe because there mother or church tells them to, I think they are people that are weak.

humans are very weak by nature, i agree 100%. our intelligence is also our greatest downfall - but we are smart enough to ask why. death is not easy to cope with and belief in a higher power makes it a little easier. humans are also very selfish, we want to live forever, in heaven or otherwise. people cannot accept that our lives are made possible by a series of chemical reactions, no more, no less. without going into a biology 101 discussion i will point out that organic chemicals, the chemicals that 'could' have started the entire process of life can be created from inorganic chemicals and the right atmospheric conditions.

as far as why this baby lives, and this one dies etc. who knows why? does there even need to be a reason? i don't think so. some people do need a reason or an explanation. but the simple fact is that somethings just are.

[MuGGsy]

Originally posted by goliath
humans are very weak by nature, i agree 100%. our intelligence is also our greatest downfall - but we are smart enough to ask why. death is not easy to cope with and belief in a higher power makes it a little easier. humans are also very selfish, we want to live forever, in heaven or otherwise. people cannot accept that our lives are made possible by a series of chemical reactions, no more, no less. without going into a biology 101 discussion i will point out that organic chemicals, the chemicals that 'could' have started the entire process of life can be created from inorganic chemicals and the right atmospheric conditions.

as far as why this baby lives, and this one dies etc. who knows why? does there even need to be a reason? i don't think so. some people do need a reason or an explanation. but the simple fact is that somethings just are.

I agree with this for hte most part bro, I just get stumped up thinking that something could just be. Creating something out of the right atmospheric condition etc implies the atmosphere was at somepoint created, if I'm getting this mistaken feel free to let me know.. this is just my delima :o

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by goliath
humans are very weak by nature, i agree 100%. our intelligence is also our greatest downfall - but we are smart enough to ask why. death is not easy to cope with and belief in a higher power makes it a little easier. humans are also very selfish, we want to live forever, in heaven or otherwise. people cannot accept that our lives are made possible by a series of chemical reactions, no more, no less. without going into a biology 101 discussion i will point out that organic chemicals, the chemicals that 'could' have started the entire process of life can be created from inorganic chemicals and the right atmospheric conditions.

as far as why this baby lives, and this one dies etc. who knows why? does there even need to be a reason? i don't think so. some people do need a reason or an explanation. but the simple fact is that somethings just are.

agreed. its just hard to understand where these organic chemicals and atmosphere came from. the only fact we have is that we are here and something made us. chemical, ET's, or something else. nobody knows. some might think they know but in the end your guess is as good as mine.

[Primal Instinct]

I think that people want to believe that there's someone out there watching over them. Without this hope, we would have to come to terms with being alone in the solar system, if not space. It is a fear of being nakedly exposed and there is no safety net to protect us from harm. It is akin to the fears of a small child. The child wants to be the center of adoration. The child wants to believe that his/her parents can solve any problem and keep them safe from monsters. What happens if you tell a child that there ARE monsters and that no one is safe from them? The kid will be scared shitlesss and seldom sleep. They need that feeling of protection to function on a daily basis. Adults aren't much different in that way.

We may or may not have originated from the actions of a greater, wiser power but what makes us think that WE are so special if that's so? Assuming God does exist, why would it focus on only us? It surely would have created other forms of life on other worlds. Like in bodybuilding, no matter how big and buff you look in reality, there's always someone else out there who is bigger and better. It is because that is what human nature is all about- to focus on ourselves to ensure our own survival. Perhaps we aren't created in "God's" likeness but only want to believe that we are? What if the image of God is not even biological but instead, gaseous in nature? You see my point?

Is there a higher power than God? Is there someone God must answer to? What about if we hold God as the top entity and find out that God is not the top entity? What if God had parents? What then?

OK, so that sounds pretty corny but the fact stands- we don't know shit. We may believe, but we don't know. Generally, we only adhere to our own respective religions because that's what our parents taught us. As we get older, we can choose to believe differently but many don't. The promise of everlasting life in heaven (again resulting from our childish fear of death) or 72 virgins to the followers of holy jihad when they die (resulting in a reward of alot of sex in what is a highly sexually repressive society of Islamic Fundamentalists) or whatever type of reward system each religion opts for is somewhat foolish. We should not need the reward of some version of heaven for us to act humanely to each other here on earth. In every religion you will also find a punishment for not adhering to the rules. It is just another version of the carrot and the stick to get members of each religion to follow the rules of that religion.

Lastly, the ultimate goal of any religion is to propogate that religion so that eventually, all are converted to whatever religion that the practioner belongs to. Of course, when man creates a religious system, man can also take advantage of individuals of lesser stature in that religion and profit from it- it can sometimes be like a pyramid scam in a way because money and power travel upwards towards a central religious leader eg., the Pope of the Catholic Church.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
I think that people want to believe that there's someone out there watching over them. Without this hope, we would have to come to terms with being alone in the solar system, if not space. It is a fear of being nakedly exposed and there is no safety net to protect us from harm. It is akin to the fears of a small child. The child wants to be the center of adoration. The child wants to believe that his/her parents can solve any problem and keep them safe from monsters. What happens if you tell a child that there ARE monsters and that no one is safe from them? The kid will be scared shitlesss and seldom sleep. They need that feeling of protection to function on a daily basis. Adults aren't much different in that way.

We may or may not have originated from the actions of a greater, wiser power but what makes us think that WE are so special if that's so? Assuming God does exist, why would it focus on only us? It surely would have created other forms of life on other worlds. Like in bodybuilding, no matter how big and buff you look in reality, there's always someone else out there who is bigger and better. It is because that is what human nature is all about- to focus on ourselves to ensure our own survival. Perhaps we aren't created in "God's" likeness but only want to believe that we are? What if the image of God is not even biological but instead, gaseous in nature? You see my point?

Is there a higher power than God? Is there someone God must answer to? What about if we hold God as the top entity and find out that God is not the top entity? What if God had parents? What then?

OK, so that sounds pretty corny but the fact stands- we don't know shit. We may believe, but we don't know. Generally, we only adhere to our own respective religions because that's what our parents taught us. As we get older, we can choose to believe differently but many don't. The promise of everlasting life in heaven (again resulting from our childish fear of death) or 72 virgins to the followers of holy jihad when they die (resulting in a reward of alot of sex in what is a highly sexually repressive society of Islamic Fundamentalists) or whatever type of reward system each religion opts for is somewhat foolish. We should not need the reward of some version of heaven for us to act humanely to each other here on earth. In every religion you will also find a punishment for not adhering to the rules. It is just another version of the carrot and the stick to get members of each religion to follow the rules of that religion.

Lastly, the ultimate goal of any religion is to propogate that religion so that eventually, all are converted to whatever religion that the practioner belongs to. Of course, when man creates a religious system, man can also take advantage of individuals of lesser stature in that religion and profit from it- it can sometimes be like a pyramid scam in a way because money and power travel upwards towards a central religious leader eg., the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Great post.

[goliath]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
I think that people want to believe that there's someone out there watching over them. Without this hope, we would have to come to terms with being alone in the solar system, if not space. It is a fear of being nakedly exposed and there is no safety net to protect us from harm. It is akin to the fears of a small child. The child wants to be the center of adoration. The child wants to believe that his/her parents can solve any problem and keep them safe from monsters. What happens if you tell a child that there ARE monsters and that no one is safe from them? The kid will be scared shitlesss and seldom sleep. They need that feeling of protection to function on a daily basis. Adults aren't much different in that way.

We may or may not have originated from the actions of a greater, wiser power but what makes us think that WE are so special if that's so? Assuming God does exist, why would it focus on only us? It surely would have created other forms of life on other worlds. Like in bodybuilding, no matter how big and buff you look in reality, there's always someone else out there who is bigger and better. It is because that is what human nature is all about- to focus on ourselves to ensure our own survival. Perhaps we aren't created in "God's" likeness but only want to believe that we are? What if the image of God is not even biological but instead, gaseous in nature? You see my point?

Is there a higher power than God? Is there someone God must answer to? What about if we hold God as the top entity and find out that God is not the top entity? What if God had parents? What then?

OK, so that sounds pretty corny but the fact stands- we don't know shit. We may believe, but we don't know. Generally, we only adhere to our own respective religions because that's what our parents taught us. As we get older, we can choose to believe differently but many don't. The promise of everlasting life in heaven (again resulting from our childish fear of death) or 72 virgins to the followers of holy jihad when they die (resulting in a reward of alot of sex in what is a highly sexually repressive society of Islamic Fundamentalists) or whatever type of reward system each religion opts for is somewhat foolish. We should not need the reward of some version of heaven for us to act humanely to each other here on earth. In every religion you will also find a punishment for not adhering to the rules. It is just another version of the carrot and the stick to get members of each religion to follow the rules of that religion.

Lastly, the ultimate goal of any religion is to propogate that religion so that eventually, all are converted to whatever religion that the practioner belongs to. Of course, when man creates a religious system, man can also take advantage of individuals of lesser stature in that religion and profit from it- it can sometimes be like a pyramid scam in a way because money and power travel upwards towards a central religious leader eg., the Pope of the Catholic Church.

fantastic post!

[JUICE]

all i know is that im goin to die one day and god knows where im going after that, or thats it for me, a one lifetime thing:(

[JUICE]

Wow, ever since I read this thread a while back, it made me wonder. As I said I do believe in GOD but I think of how we were really made. After reading this Ive been going over web sites trying to find out more. I do believe we evolved from apes. As apes being our closest ancestors and all. I saw once on the Discovery channel the scientific explanation on human life. Saying that we evolved from the ocean. From the water taking millions of years for life to evolve on Earth or something. Theres alot of weird shit out there no one knows, not even science cant explain it.

http://www.christiancourier.com/ques...whyCreated.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs...c8-25-2000.asp

http://members.aol.com/rhrrr/creation.htm

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner...m_an_anim.html

http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm


If these are bad I will take them down. Just some info I was going through and had here saved on my pc.

:D

[rude]

I honestly dont think we evolved from the apes. Too many or more what if's on the subject of evolution.

Do you believe are eyes were formed from 2 light sensitive frekels (sp) through evolution?

Also, the dino fish that was found the coelacanth fish ( I dinosaure that still lives today) Didnt "evolve" like evolution says. This fish has stayed the same, not evolving or anything over a course of millions of years. This fact alone forces a major contradiction in evolution.

Remember, evolution has no real facts, its just one big Hypothises (sp)

[rude]

here is a few links that are pro bible...

http://www.genesisfiles.com/Archaeology.htm

This one is kinda interesting...

http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html

[kast]

Darwin never said "evolution". He had no idea HOW species could have different characteristics but be the same species nonetheless. After studying finches on the Gallopagos Islands, he realized that many finches had different characteristics (like the beaks mainly). however, he didn't necessarily come up with how this happened (didn't know about mutations or how they occured) and MOST DEFINATELY did not know how the characteristics were past on (genetics).

as for the theory of evolution, the theory is that humans an Apes evolved from the same origin, not that apes became humans as someone said earlier.

Just wanted to set those couple of things straight for anyone who was confused on the subject.

As for my belief....I believe that God put the stuff in motion and that evolution exists because of the way He worked it all out. all i'm saying is that it's POSSIBLE to believe in both...no one is forced one way or the other except by some religious folk. Even the Pope said evolution was ok eventually...after that, bunches of Catholics accepted it... that alone tells of how governed those that tightly follow religious leaders may be. One day they abhor the idea of evolution, the next day their leader says it's cool and they accept it. funny huh?

believe what YOU find through questioning what you need to...that's the only way anyone really chooses and ever believes in anything. someone said earlier that mother's and churches shouldn't govern your beliefs in religion and science and the way things work...that is undoubtedly an awesome truth.