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  • Do you trust these people anymore?

    OK, the primary reason for the invasion of Iraq has been officially blown out of the water by the following report: U.S. Report Undercuts Bush War Rationale



    I guess that it makes the invasion of Iraq an illegal war being that none of the rationale provided by this administration to attack was true and much evidence against their claims was suppressed. Although it may be played off (spun) as a serious err in judgement of the current administration, I submit that it was definitely no error. It was going to happen regardless of a congressional vote or public outcry. Now that the US' own inspections teams and experts have discounted Iraq's WMD capabilities and threat to US national security (the primary argument for a US invasion) what the White House is saying is that Iraq might have tried to restart a WMD program. There were no massive chemical or biological stockpiles- in fact, there were absolutely NO stockpiles found- and no unmanned ariel vehicles ready to disperse chem/bio weapons over large areas of the US eastern seaboard. None of this mattered because the Bush Administration got their war, as planned. The invasion of Iraq was in the works by these exact same members of the Bush Administration as far back as 1997 and there is indisputable proof of this.

    Do you really want to trust these guys to another 4 years using the mentality of preemptive war either misinformed or without concern for the actual truth? Do you want this administration who claims to be concerned about the proliferation of nuclear weapons while at the same time, they pulled out of nuclear arms talks and have publically stated that they plan to develop AND USE small-scale nuclear (or nucular, if you prefer) weapons on the field of battle? In your hearts do you think that this is this really a responsible government policy? Do you really believe that no other administration could do better than this one on Homeland Security (which Bush initially opposed) or border security here at home? Be honest with yourself.

    How about on the economy? Are the majority of people that you know in your lives doing financially better than they were before Bush took office? Do you know anyone who became unemployed in the last 3-1/2 years that had their benefit period cut short? Did they go on to take a job at a substantially lower payscale JUST to make ends meet? Think about these things before you decide on who to vote for.



    Here is another one of my hypotheticals for anyone who STILL may be undecided:


    Let's assume that you owned a large company and hired a CEO to run it for you. Let's further assume that you expect a certain degree of executive proficiency and accountability from this person. Now let's imagine that your company is bleeding money badly and the corporate policies that your CEO chose are failing you and your shareholders. Company earnings are far below expectations and he is running up massive debts and the company is teetering on bankruptcy. We can fairly say that this CEO isn't performing in your best interests, correct? So, you have a talk with the man and state your legitimate concerns but he refuses to change his policies. When put to the question of why he isn't performing up to your expectations, he can only offer excuses and blame the previous CEO (and anyone else besides himself) for this mess. So, you ask him to change his policies but he refuses to do so. Remember now, you're his employer and he is bankrupting your company and all that you have worked so hard for in your life stands to be lost.


    What do you do now? Do you let him him keep running your company into the ground because he won't change the direction the company is taking? Do you let him keep going because you admire a man who sticks to a policy- good or bad- and "stays the course?" Of course not. You get someone new who has a proven track record, takes responsibility for his actions and can turn this thing around. Need we predict what happens if you don't fire the current CEO? If you keep him on -given the above information and trends- then you deserve to lose everything because only a fool would stand by to watch someone ruin your considerable investment. Here's the kicker; you originally hired this guy as your CEO without thoroughly checking his references and background. You find out much later (after you've lost your company to bankruptcy) that he has had a very poor track record as a CEO (leader) and that everywhere else that he's worked previously has been strapped by massive debts or has gone bankrupt.

    Do your research on this man, Bush. Look at his past and you'll see his future.

  • #2
    Excellent post PI

    Comment


    • #3
      But Kerry isn't a better choice either. I wish the republicans would have sent up somebody else other than W.

      I'll send my vote to Nader. At least it will show the Dems and republicans that they need to change or loose votes.

      I am tired of the same old BS from both parties.


      www.votenader.org

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by comsquat
        Excellent post PI

        Thanks :D




        Rykker77,

        I am a registered independent voter. I voted for Ross Perot in 1992. Clinton won that election. It turned out that Clinton really did do a great job with our government by paying down the national debt, turned the economy around, and brokering a very respectable mideast peace plan that at the last minute, Arafat pulled out of (it gave the Palestinians 95% of what they asked for). Clinton did go to Bosnia in efforts to cease the ethnic cleansing there by Milosevic and his forces there. He took terrorism as a serious threat and made changes to increase our national security. Basically, I didn't vote for him in 92 but he suprised me and won my confidence. I voted for him in his re-election bid with a high degree of confidence and was not dissappointed with my choice. It just goes to show you that you can be suprised for the better at times.


        There are no redeeming features of this current US leadership in any category; environmental, domestic, economic, foreign policy, homeland security, civil rights, health and welfare of the citizens, tort reform, taxation policies, and its VERY LIBERAL SPENDING HABITS. It doesn't take a genius to realize that continued massive deficit spending while promoting tax cuts are a potent combination for disaster. Anyone in America who runs a household could tell you this. It is just not responsible government and we will pay off this debt and the resulting interest charges for quite some time to come. We deserve better leadership.

        Comment


        • #5
          GREAT ANALOGY, PI.

          When can we get married?

          Comment


          • #6
            LOL. :bnoser:

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Primal Instinct
              It turned out that Clinton really did do a great job with our government by paying down the national debt, turned the economy around,
              i have a question for you - do you not lay any blame on the clinton administration for being so lax on their watch that it precipitated corporate failures like enron, worldcom, and the entire internet bubble?

              in my opinion, the great economy that was seen through his whole 8 year term was a great big speculation. meaning - a lot of this "we paid off debt" was based on estimates of future tax revenue from these net bubble companies which never came to fruition.

              can you truly blame the current administration for the corporate malfeasance that went on during clinton's watch which lead to the corporate failures in the last 4 years?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by sana
                i have a question for you - do you not lay any blame on the clinton administration for being so lax on their watch that it precipitated corporate failures like enron, worldcom, and the entire internet bubble?

                in my opinion, the great economy that was seen through his whole 8 year term was a great big speculation. meaning - a lot of this "we paid off debt" was based on estimates of future tax revenue from these net bubble companies which never came to fruition.

                can you truly blame the current administration for the corporate malfeasance that went on during clinton's watch which lead to the corporate failures in the last 4 years?





                Sana,

                By no means has the Clinton Administration been perfect in all of its endeavors. However, in many aspects that administration certainly eclipsed the efforts of the current Bush administration.

                As for being lax on terrorism on their watch- there were certain things then that are not considered today. Among them is the Oklahoma City Bombing and the first WTC bombing event. It took several years to find perpetrators of those attacks and a knowledge base had to be built from nothing. The existence of Al Qaeda wasn't even known until around late 95, I believe. Osama bin Laden was just a shadowy figure who was thought to have some connection to sponsoring terrorism and had not yet founded Al Qaeda. This link outlines some of the initiatives that his administration pushed for and signed into law in 1995-96: Clinton Administration Counter Terrorism Initiative The Clinton Administration took bin Laden's Fatwah seriously and addressed it accordingly. Efforts were made to improve overseas mideast intelligence sources in Afghanistan and Sudan in particular.


                In 1996, President Clinton signed into law the anti-terrorism bill, which took measures to address the Oklahoma City bombing and extended wiretap measures, as well as broaden powers to investigate terrorism funding sources.


                After the American embassy bombings in 1998, Clinton authorized use of force to kill Osama bin Laden if tracked down. There were several cruise missile strikes against bin Laden in Afghanistan, one of which had just missed Osama by less than 2 minutes. This is a very complex issue that I really can't spend much more time on today...


                Here is a brief summary of domestic issues that were signed into law during Clinton's tenure: Congress Passes anti-terrorism bill A Look At The Clinton Record


                It was the Clinton Administration that designed the Patriot Act (I don't agree with all aspects of this act) and made some of the more controversial provisions limited by a sunset clause- to limit the potential for the abuse of power by the authorities. This document was in possession of the Bush Administration since the election results and 9 months later was sitting on the President's desk awaiting signature into law. It was literally sitting on his desk on September 10, 2001.


                I strongly suggest that you read Richard Clarke's book, "Against All Enemies", which addressed his tenure under the last four US Presidents (Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton & George W. Bush) before he finally left the current Bush Administration in disgust. He was the chief counter terrorism official throughout his service and developed security measures to protect and fight terrorism against the US at home and abroad. He is a non-partisan, which is extremely important and relevant to our discussions here. You will be made privy by the inner workings of the National Security Council and the mindsets and actual words of the presidents that he served. Sadly, you will be somewhat disappointed at the end of the book.


                Clarke's book explains what was known by administrations and when it was known. It also discusses the courses of action available to the various presidents at the time and what courses were chosen. Not all incidents were clear at the time that they occurred as to who perpetrated them. It discusses Lebanon in 1982 through the first WTC bombing, to the Atlanta Olympic Games bombing, through the USS Cole, the American Embassy bombings in Africa, and culminates with the 9/11 attacks and Bush's push for war in Iraq regardless of available intelligence briefings and evidence to suggest against their involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Clark eventually resigned from office due to disgust over the failure of Bush to implement new counter-terrorism measures and homeland security measures.


                I hope that this covers some of your questions.


                I forgot....

                Corporate malfeasence (cooking the company books) went on during Clinton's tenure as with other presidents before him. There is however, one huge difference between that which occurred during Bush's tenure; Enron's CEO was Ken Lay- a major corporate campaign contributor to Bush. He will never see a day in jail even if he is even charged because Bush will pardon him on his last day in office. Kozlowski at Tyco and the guys from Global Crossing, as well as Worldcom have a long ways to go before any trials are carried out. The only guys I have seen really getting close to receiving punishment for their corporate looting is the Riga family who ran Adelphia Cable.

                I didn't agree with Clinton's support for NAFTA either. It was a bad move in my opinion and led to the mentality of mass outsourcing of US jobs that continues today with no penalties to the companies that continue to do this while receiving corporate tax breaks. It's just plain immoral to me.
                Last edited by Primal Instinct; 10-06-04, 07:14 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Primal Instinct


                  I hope that this covers some of your questions.


                  you posted and wasted your time trying to convince me about something i didn't even ask you about. i didn't bother reading it. i skimmed it and i will only say that i have no desire to read richard clarkes book. nor do i have any desire to read any of the political books out on the market now as they are all full of crap. this would be books from both sides.

                  Originally posted by Primal Instinct

                  Corporate malfeasence (cooking the company books) went on during Clinton's tenure as with other presidents before him. There is however, one huge difference between that which occurred during Bush's tenure; Enron's CEO was Ken Lay- a major corporate campaign contributor to Bush. He will never see a day in jail even if he is even charged because Bush will pardon him on his last day in office. Kozlowski at Tyco and the guys from Global Crossing, as well as Worldcom have a long ways to go before any trials are carried out. The only guys I have seen really getting close to receiving punishment for their corporate looting is the Riga family who ran Adelphia Cable.

                  I didn't agree with Clinton's support for NAFTA either. It was a bad move in my opinion and led to the mentality of mass outsourcing of US jobs that continues today with no penalties to the companies that continue to do this while receiving corporate tax breaks. It's just plain immoral to me.
                  #1. you don't have to "explain" to me what corporate malfeasance is since that's what i asked you about. i am insulted you felt the need to "bracket it" for me to help me "understand" what it means.

                  #2. you are mearing speculating that ken lay will get pardoned based on your obvious bias against the current administration. i have no confidence he will come to trial, but i will also not ASSume that he will be pardoned if he is brought to trial. AND if you have followed any of the trials that have been going on recently, you will see that even if the governement were able to bring him to trial, it is very difficult to get a guilty verdict due to the definitions of "wrongdoing" and "knowledge" of said "wrongdoing".

                  Kozlowski has been tried. and his trial has been declared a mistrial. so the Rigas family is not the only one who's gone on trial.

                  furthermore, you are missing the point that i was making that aside from the coporate wrongdoings by the above companies, there was a HUGE amount of consumer speculation in the internet bubble that injected a lot of "manufactured" and non-existent wealth into the economy during the 90's boom. this huge increase in paper wealth around the country accounted for a lot of the calculations for future income collection that the governement used to make their budget projections. so effectively - due to the speculative stock market of the 90's, we looked better in the future picture during the Clinton adminstration that we SHOULD have.

                  #3. just the fact that you find "outsourcing" to be a MORAL issue - i am going to make the assumption that you are not part of the business or corporate environment. the global business - yes i said GLOBAL - companies such as Ford, GM, Dell, whomever - are all part of the global economy. As such, they are responsible to investors IN and OUT of the US. i work for a Dutch company. we are most accountable in the end to the BOTTOM LINE. unfortunately - if you cannot report good results to your investors, you have failed. if you cannot make money, you cannot continue to employ people. be it in the US or the rest of the world. "outsourcing" - this evil that you find so morally apprehensible is an inevitablity. this US economy has changed drastically in the past 25 years. we've become a manufacturing and industrial output based economy into a service based economy. many of the economic outputs data has not changed to reflect this shift in paradigm.

                  #4. don't bother responding b/c i most likely won't read what you have to write b/c your responses are too long and often - not even what i asked. so even if you do respond, you're obviously set in a place where i don't agree and i don't want to waste any more of my time talking to a wall.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sana
                    you posted and wasted your time trying to convince me about something i didn't even ask you about. i didn't bother reading it. i skimmed it and i will only say that i have no desire to read richard clarkes book. nor do i have any desire to read any of the political books out on the market now as they are all full of crap. this would be books from both sides.



                    #1. you don't have to "explain" to me what corporate malfeasance is since that's what i asked you about. i am insulted you felt the need to "bracket it" for me to help me "understand" what it means.

                    #2. you are mearing speculating that ken lay will get pardoned based on your obvious bias against the current administration. i have no confidence he will come to trial, but i will also not ASSume that he will be pardoned if he is brought to trial. AND if you have followed any of the trials that have been going on recently, you will see that even if the governement were able to bring him to trial, it is very difficult to get a guilty verdict due to the definitions of "wrongdoing" and "knowledge" of said "wrongdoing".

                    Kozlowski has been tried. and his trial has been declared a mistrial. so the Rigas family is not the only one who's gone on trial.

                    furthermore, you are missing the point that i was making that aside from the coporate wrongdoings by the above companies, there was a HUGE amount of consumer speculation in the internet bubble that injected a lot of "manufactured" and non-existent wealth into the economy during the 90's boom. this huge increase in paper wealth around the country accounted for a lot of the calculations for future income collection that the governement used to make their budget projections. so effectively - due to the speculative stock market of the 90's, we looked better in the future picture during the Clinton adminstration that we SHOULD have.

                    #3. just the fact that you find "outsourcing" to be a MORAL issue - i am going to make the assumption that you are not part of the business or corporate environment. the global business - yes i said GLOBAL - companies such as Ford, GM, Dell, whomever - are all part of the global economy. As such, they are responsible to investors IN and OUT of the US. i work for a Dutch company. we are most accountable in the end to the BOTTOM LINE. unfortunately - if you cannot report good results to your investors, you have failed. if you cannot make money, you cannot continue to employ people. be it in the US or the rest of the world. "outsourcing" - this evil that you find so morally apprehensible is an inevitablity. this US economy has changed drastically in the past 25 years. we've become a manufacturing and industrial output based economy into a service based economy. many of the economic outputs data has not changed to reflect this shift in paradigm.

                    #4. don't bother responding b/c i most likely won't read what you have to write b/c your responses are too long and often - not even what i asked. so even if you do respond, you're obviously set in a place where i don't agree and i don't want to waste any more of my time talking to a wall.
                    :eek:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, OK then. Chill out a little bit... I didn't bracket the malfeasance term for your benefit. It was not intended as any form of insult. Other people read these threads besides just us. As for outsourcing, yeah- I'm aware of global economies and their benefits and pitfalls. I'm talking specifically about outsourcing to China and Africa and we both know exactly why it's being done so don't insult my intelligence either. I'm not some protectionist yet I do see many signs of outsourcing as an abusive practice to wriggle out of paying US citizens honest living wages and as a loophole to get around paying insurance costs and taxes, not to mention skirting environmental laws enacted here in the US- Mexico being a prime example. I'm sorry I didn't offer the answer you seek but you don't have to shoot the messenger, Sana. I think your reply was rather rude. Have a nice day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well Primal Instinct, I did read your entire post and I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

                        The fact of the matter is, I am non-partisan. I look at the person and the facts. However, many seem to have a fanatical religous type faith in their party. Using logic is no good and trying to use it in order to figure them out will only lead to frustration. Their minds are already closed, so what is the point? I have given up on trying to understand them. It makes as much sense to me as my television does to my goldfish.

                        The state of the world as it is speaks for everything. I can only assume these people like things the way that they are.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I guess nobody gets it. It doesn't matter who is running the show. The world is so screwed up now that it can never be righted by anyone. Sure, one guy may do a bit better job that another, but it still won't be enough. The US economy is doomed, unless, as I read the other day, we have an immediate and permenant 60% increase in income tax, or, an immediate and permenant decrease of 50% in Social Security benefits. How long do you think foreign banks will finance things for the US, as they do now? We are all in for a very rough ride--soon. No matter who the Commander in Chief is, it's just a matter of time. Just like your many American's personal lives. They, like the government, spend more than they earn. Getting someone elected is as it always was, about the MONEY, and only the money. BB

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