Giambi admits to using steroids...

[hitmansb]

This was the first year that steroids were really illegal in baseball (IE testing with concequences). What anyone took before that doesn't matter, because it wasn't against the rules then. Remember, 2003steroid testing was just a condition where players were tested anonymously, and if a certain percentage tested positive, this next phase would be enacted. The magic number was met, so as of last season, they were actually banned. None of these guys tested positive in 2004, and EVERY PLAYER was tested.

[Scrumhalf]

I think we are mixing up legality (i.e whether the CBA said it was ok to use steroids) and testing. I contend that regardless of whether there was any testing done, steroids were illegal in 2003 for sure, because the current CBA covers the years 2003-2006.

Here is a link to the CBA:

http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseba...cAgreement.pdf

[psyko1]

Originally posted by Keiser
Bonds is next.

They are all cheaters in my book.

i don't get how they're cheaters. not singling you out Keiser but being the board's administrator you of all people should know that steroids are in no way a magical fix to anything. nobody on the planet can take ANY amount of gear and not workout and get their bodies to grow. anyone that uses gear properly knows that their training intensity has to surpass that of someone without it, there's dedication in their diets. take a gram of test a week, try eating like crap, not workout, and get no rest. see where you end up. what people fail to realize is that this is their jobs. normal people like you and me might find it hard to believe that they get paid millions of dollars to play a game that children play everyday. it's their jobs, it's their "day at the office". they're just athletes trying to get an edge at what it is they do in life. nothing else. tell me why do doctors constantly read medical journals, and always follow up on new advancements in their field? why because it;s their job, and they would like to better themselves. why do police officers target practice? to better themselves. why do firemen go through training even after they become firemen? so athletes use steroids who cares? just enjoy watching the sport.

[Taylor]

Originally posted by Scrumhalf
[B]Bad laws or rules can be changed

that's what i was saying in the first place...comparing it to laws so you would understand


and if you want a "civil debate" you shouldn't act as if your opinion is the only one that matters

[Taylor]

Originally posted by psyko1
i don't get how they're cheaters.

it is because they are not....anybody who plays baseball competively knows you either got it or you don't...skill cannot be injected

[Scrumhalf]

Originally posted by Taylor
that's what i was saying in the first place...comparing it to laws so you would understand


and if you want a "civil debate" you shouldn't act as if your opinion is the only one that matters

Sigh....

Whenever I have disagreed with anyone, I have done it in the most polite and reasonable of ways - look back at my entire history of posts. Life is too short for me to harbor anger or ill-will for largely anonymous people I hardly know.

I will leave it up to a moderator to determine who is dragging down the civility index of this thread or board.

[Keiser]

Originally posted by psyko1
i don't get how they're cheaters. not singling you out Keiser but being the board's administrator you of all people should know that steroids are in no way a magical fix to anything. nobody on the planet can take ANY amount of gear and not workout and get their bodies to grow. anyone that uses gear properly knows that their training intensity has to surpass that of someone without it, there's dedication in their diets. take a gram of test a week, try eating like crap, not workout, and get no rest. see where you end up. what people fail to realize is that this is their jobs. normal people like you and me might find it hard to believe that they get paid millions of dollars to play a game that children play everyday. it's their jobs, it's their "day at the office". they're just athletes trying to get an edge at what it is they do in life. nothing else. tell me why do doctors constantly read medical journals, and always follow up on new advancements in their field? why because it;s their job, and they would like to better themselves. why do police officers target practice? to better themselves. why do firemen go through training even after they become firemen? so athletes use steroids who cares? just enjoy watching the sport.

Why do you think they are all now in court over this? Because they cheated. It really has nothing to do with the issue of steroids, it has everything to do with them taking something, whatever it was, that they weren't supposed to take and they knew they weren't supposed to take it. Once you are in the big leagues the playing field tightens up, everyone is close, so taking the steroids gives them an edge. Quicker bat speed, more power. The identical twins point someone made earlier in this thread was a good one.

If baseball were to say that it was ok for their players to do steroids, and some did and some didn't then I wouldn't have a problem with those bettering themselves. Same principle if you are taking a test in school and the teacher says you can't look at your notes, but you write them on your hand anyways, are you just bettering yourself, or are you cheating? Rules are Rules.

And your point about policeman target practicing and fireman training has absolutely nothing to do with taking steroids. Thats like comparing baseball players when practicing. Yeah policemen target practice and baseball players take batting practice. Come on man, go read your post again, the things you're trying to compare are ridiculous.

[Keiser]

Originally posted by Scrumhalf
Sigh....

Whenever I have disagreed with anyone, I have done it in the most polite and reasonable of ways - look back at my entire history of posts. Life is too short for me to harbor anger or ill-will for largely anonymous people I hardly know.

I will leave it up to a moderator to determine who is dragging down the civility index of this thread or board.

No sense in arguing anymore, you made your point. If someone has something in their head, there isn't much you can do to change it. You made some good points.

[7lok4]

Originally posted by Taylor
it is because they are not....anybody who plays baseball competively knows you either got it or you don't...skill cannot be injected

Then why risk legal issues, health problem and public embarassment if there is no edge to be gained? Steroids alone probably wont put a person in the big leagues but there is no doubt that it can add a huge edge to someone who is already there.

As far whether or not they were against the rules? Of course they were. You can catch a felony case in some states for possesion. MLB, like all pro sports has a code of conduct policy that applies to their players. If you are engaged in criminal behavior you would be in violation. It's only now that the league is being forced to confront the issue, and as far as the testing system goes it's a joke. They would lose less face if they did not test at all.

[psyko1]

Originally posted by Keiser

my point was, it's their job. it's only a job. yes they're athlete's but they get a paycheck, have a union, pay taxes, and get social security taken out. just like everyone else. i wasn't comparing a hostage negotiation, with batting practice, or having drills in carrying out a unconscious person from a building to fielding, i was comparing the fact that all of us from law enforcment to computer programers are always trying to better ourselves in our chosen careers. or once you get your job do you stop learning new things? do you stop working on ways to make your job easier, or your work better? no, you continually try new things to better yourself. so in this case they chose anabolics. and they don't all choose anabolics, and i haven't seen anyone bat .1000, or hit 50 homeruns in a game, or have a 1000 hr season. why not if some of these players are steroid users? it's not that big of a deal. their contracts say it's illegal in their sport which is why their cheaters. if it wasn't an issue with their rules we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. and one more thing if a batter hits the ball with the wind and it carries it an extra 5 feet, making the center fielder unable to jump and catch the ball, is he a cheater? why not? without the wind the fielder would've easily caught it. why not?

[Scrumhalf]

Originally posted by psyko1
....... it's not that big of a deal. their contracts say it's illegal in their sport which is why their cheaters. if it wasn't an issue with their rules we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Precisely. If the rules of baseball and the CBA did not have any mention of steroids, nobody would be arguing about who is juicing and who is not. However, the rulebook clearly states that using steroids is not allowed - so every player needs to abide by the rules if they are playing fair.

A good analogy is corking your bat, or using a stick above the maximum allowed size in hockey. It just isn't allowed and anyone who does it to secure an edge or an advantage is cheating.

and one more thing if a batter hits the ball with the wind and it carries it an extra 5 feet, making the center fielder unable to jump and catch the ball, is he a cheater? why not? without the wind the fielder would've easily caught it. why not?

I guess you lost me there. There is nothing in the rulebook that says that the wind has to be below a certain value for a HR to be legal. If the wind is blowing out at 20mph and it carries the ball further, that's just tough luck, much as the humidity in the air on a given day may benefit a certain kind of pitcher more than another.

However, there are sports where the wind has to be below a legal limit, for example in track and field. If the wind is above the limit, your times are recorded as wind-aided. In this case, the track and field rules clearly lay out what value of wind speed is acceptable and what is not.

The whole discussion here boils down to playing by the rules. We may not like the rules and we may all agree that major league baseball should remove all references to performance-enhancing substances from their rulebook and the CBA, but the fact is that the rules are clear on what is allowed and what is not and anyone who claims to play fair has to follow the rules.

[Move2lt]

Man did we hit a nerve or something....they have been testing in the minor leagues for years and Taylor you are only fooling yourself if you believe that anyone taking any type of steroid is not giving himself an unfair edge. All you have to do is take a look at Giambi. The man looks like a shell of himself after being "clean" for almost 16 months. And Taylor when I called you kid I did not mean any disrespect its just the way I speak with my friends sometimes and by the way I made it all the way to triple A and almost went up for a cup of coffee but I guess it wasnt meant to be.

[Taylor]

i think in football steroids would help drastically, maybe in basketball for a big man in the paint, but in baseball, as a baseball player I don't think it helps enough to be considered cheating

you have less then a second to decide whether the ball is breaking in or away, dropping...coming 90, or 70...as a hitter you have all that to do and being a little stronger is not going to make a difference between you being a regular player and an all star

you can come at me with what's in the books and the rules, and all that is what it is...but AS A BASEBALL PLAYER, i do not consider it cheating...if I'm on the field with someone it's not something I will complain about, or even think about for that matter....

[psyko1]

Originally posted by Scrumhalf

I guess you lost me there.

i was talking about it being an unfair advantage. would the RANDOM wind assisted hr be considered cheating, since maybe the opposing team wouldn't have that same gust of wind? i don't disagree with them breaking the rules. it's obvious they did. i just don't see how they are "cheating". or at least explain to me what they are cheating on?

[Scrumhalf]

Maybe we are disagreeing on semantics here, but in my book, if you are breaking the rules, you are cheating. You are cheating everyone who is following the rules because you are gaining an unfair advantage, whether it is more strength, more speed or whatever.

To be pedantic - from dictionary.com

cheat

v. intr.
.....
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.


It is in this context that I contend what Giambi did was cheating.