question on terri schiavo

[Pumpdogg]

Originally posted by blm
Her family offered Michael Shiavo 1 million dollars to give them gaurdianship over Terry. He declined to accept it so he could honor his wifes verbal dying wishes to him. He has nothing to gain out of this except honoring his wifes wishes. Her parents continuously claim abuse towards the husband, but they are the ones that for the third time want the tube reinserted. That just makes it worse. Nunmerous doctors and specialists have declared that there is not chance of her coming out of her "persistant vegetative state" a functional human being. She is brain dead. Period. The media shows one clip over and over where she blinks, to play on the sympathy of people, like she is coherent. The doctors have observed her for hundreds of hours over the last 15 year and they all agree that she is not coherent, but brain dead. I wish they would stop tying up the court systems with this crap and just let the woman die with some dignity.

This story has taken over the media to where it is becoming a political platform for Republicans. The same time this new dispute started, there was a 9 year old girl abducted, raped, and murdered, but it took a back seat to all of this other shit regarding Terry Shiavo.

:agree:

They said part of her brain has liquefied and this is what happens to people in that state. The media is getting better ratings and that is what this is about for them. Its a damn shame. We have some friends of our family that has a daughter that is progressively getting worse from brain injuries from a car wreck, they have said that part of her brain has turned to liquid and as time goes on she will become a vegetable too. I think she should be allowed to die in peace, all she is right now is a warm body to go and look at.... sad very sad

PD

PD

[Kayak Jones]

It's a decision I hope to never have to make. I know hunters, myself included, who have shown more mercy to a wounded animal than this woman is being given. Starving and especially dying of thirst is a long, sad, pitiful way to go.

[Scrumhalf]

Originally posted by blm

This story has taken over the media to where it is becoming a political platform for Republicans. The same time this new dispute started, there was a 9 year old girl abducted, raped, and murdered, but it took a back seat to all of this other shit regarding Terry Shiavo.

I wish the politicians would spend about 10% of the energy they have expended on this case on real issues like balancing the budget and working on the national debt. They are mortgaging the future of the country - if they are truly worried about our kids this would be a good place to start.

[blm]

Originally posted by Scrumhalf
They are mortgaging the future of the country - if they are truly worried about our kids this would be a good place to start.

Great point

[CiViC SpiKeS]

Yeah if i ended up like that and there was no chance of me coming out.... i say give me a year and pull the plug.. im not going to run up debt and bills and cause my family anymore grief.. ill just go.

[SloppyJo]

have u seen 'million dollar baby'? situation is almost the same.. badass movie by the way

[Primal Instinct]

Dreamgirl,

Even if Terri COULD somehow have comprehensive thoughts in her head yet not be able to interact or communicate in any way, shape or form, would it be worth another 15 or 30 years of doing nothing more than breathing? I say no. Would YOU really want to put your family through such a stressful situation for decades on end?

This issue is really about quality of life. Terri is not cognizant and cannot recover from this setback. Once part of the brain dies, it cannot be replaced or grow back. That is it, game over. There will be no recovery. She's had numerous experts give their professional opinions on this matter. Something like 23 judges ahve so far made rulings in the favor of the husband. This guy had stuck by his wife for 15 years and has spent tons of money on her trying to get some help for her. She is beyond help now. She has been like this for 15 years and she will not get better. Don't confuse this with a comatose patient who still has an intact brain. She is also not like someone who has a damaged spinal cord that could someday (stem cell research?) might be cured by reconnecting the severed electrical connections of the CNS.

The parents can't let go, although they should. She is only the physical remains of the person that they once knew. She doesn't feel pain or hunger or thirst. She is alive in only the most rudimentary sense of the word. Yes, she moves and makes sounds. That is not to be confused with human interaction though. Her parents spent over 6 hours viseotaping her in her bed. Have you actually seen her? What you see on video is the best that they could offer- the BEST. What you don't see is the other 5 hours and 50 minutes of non-responsiveness from her. What is really sad is that the family has probably convinced themselves that she is folloing the balloon or responding to their touch when in fact, the father was following HER gaze with the balloon.


As harsh as it may sound, Terri is no more human than a venus flytrap. Yes, she breathes. She moves (a little) and reacts to sound and light changes, like the plant. Yet the plant does not have any human characteristic qualities about it and neither does she anymore. She does not interact with people. Her motions are randomly generated. Her brain had filled with spinal fluid and almost all of the brain tissues are dead now except for the lower brain stem area which controls breathing and involuntary movements. Please do not acscribe to Terri personality that cannot possibly exist without consciousness and brain wave patterns.

The situation is a true shame. The worst part about all of this are the rumors and the hate campaign promoted against her husband by the family, media outlets and politicians. Since when should Tom DeLay proclaim morality anyhow? What a tragic joke this is. A person can love a spouse/former spouse (dead or alive) and still love other people. He stuck with her for 15 years through the same physical state with no progress or change in her condition. This decision to remove the feeding tube is NOT some whim of his imagination. Get real, people.

People have needs to meet (mostly companionship) after much less than 15 years. He can love Terri (who he'll never get back again) and still love another woman. Who are WE to make moral judgements on him? We haven't been through what he's been through. The parents will say and do anything to keep Terri alive. Even make up stories about how she spoke, "I want to live." Sad. The mother actually said on TV, "Terri is my life and reason for my existence." We must honestly ask ourselves this one pertinent question; Is it for Terri's sake to keep her alive or perhaps could it be for their own selfish needs? They need to let her go now but it is beyond their abilities at this point.

[urso8up]

I know that if i were in taht state hat she is in and i couldn't do anything and had a feeding tube i wouldn't want to live. you can't do anything but just sit there and collect debt for you family memebers. It is no way to live i say.

[BENCH355ANIMAL]

Re: Re: Re: question on terri schiavo

Originally posted by dreamgirl
The only reason I dispute this is that he has a gf and kids with her, he's seemed to moved on (it's been 15 years now). She also never indicated a DO NOT RESESITATE and if she did, it was never in writing. After her lack of oxygen to her brain, the hospital tried to implant something and it caused her then to be in the state she is in now. She was awarded a $1.4 million malpractice suit... this was to pay for her rehab which her husband didn't send her too. There's a lot to read about and I just did on her website.

BTW-- She only needs a feeding tube to be alive and is breathing on her own.


So what I am getting from you guys is that the other side is like Mercy Death...

this is all really depressing me thinking about this... :(

Breathing is an involuntary muscle movement. You don't have to tell your lungs to breath or your heart to breathe. It's controlled by the only part of her brain which is still alive.

Not sure where you're getting your info DG, but they were awarded the money because of a mis-diagnosed potassium imblance (due to her bulimia) which in turn caused her to have a stroke. It had nothing to do with an implant. In regards to the husband not sending the her to the rehab and using the money to pay for it......he's spent the money keeping her alive thus far. There is barely enough left, and this is why he is trying to get this over with. The lady died 15 years ago. Her body may still be "functioning" but her soul was taken a long time ago. Her parents need to accept the fact thier daughter is dead, and she confided in her HUSBAND her wishes. They are keeping her alive for their own comfort, not for her benefit. They keep trying to say she is responsive, and smiles at the sound of peoples voices. They showed video tapes in court of her smiling, but they failed to mention out of several hours of video......only a few seconds show her "reacting". Her "smiles" and "reactions" are involuntary muscle movements....just like her heart beat and breathing.



LET HER GO!!!

People have needs to meet (mostly companionship) after much less than 15 years. He can love Terri (who he'll never get back again) and still love another woman. Who are WE to make moral judgements on him?

:agree:

God forbid, but if your spouse died today......how long would you stay single? Would you really go the rest of your life without finding another companion. Being 26......I would definitly find someone after time, and I think 15 years is long enough for the man to go through this.

[dreamgirl]

ok ok, i do see all your points... thank you.. I hope that I really never have to deal with anything like this. I can't imagine the stress this would put on a family and husband... it's very gut wrenching.

[Shibby]

I just saw this shirt

[spidey]

I realize people are emotional about this issue. It is an extremely sad predicament for her husband and her family. People need to put emotion aside for a moment and look logically at the facts in this case:

1. Terri Shiavo is in a persistent vegetative state from which she can never recover. There can be no logical dispute of this fact since MRI and CAT scans have shown that she virtually has no cerebral cortex. It is GONE and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. You can't re-grow a brain folks. It is simply a medical impossibility. Without a cerebral cortex, she can have no awareness or responsiveness to anything. She is, for all intents and purposes brain dead. Autonomic functions and reflex actions are regulated in the brain stem. Since this area of her brain is still functioning, she can breath; her heart beats and she can swallow. Reflex actions like smiling or moaning are purely random as many, many doctors have noted after spending literally HUNDREDS of hours observing her. Her court appointed physician (a dedicated right to lifer) literally BEGGED her to respond in any way so he could save her life. After hundreds of hours of observation, he concluded, with tears in his eyes, that she was in a persistent vegetative state.

2. Terri Shiavo not only told her husband of her end of life wishes. She also told her best friend. So, there is some corroboration here as to what she wanted to happen were she to be in this situation. Until now, I didn't have a written living will either. I just told my wife and my friends what I wanted to occur if the worst happened. I never even considered a mess like this where my parents might fight to keep me alive with no hope or congress would step in to thwart my wishes.

3. Michael Shiavo will not benefit financially from his wife's death. Most of the settlement has already been spent on her care and he has already said he will donate what is left to charity. Furthermore, when offered a million dollars to sign custody over to her parents, he refused. This isn't about the money. It's about honoring his wife's wishes in the matter. Indeed, if it were about money, he could have been a millionaire and washed his hands of this whole uncomfortable mess a long time ago and went on to live his life a wealthy man. There is no logical reason for Michael Shiavo to endure this long legal battle and the literal hate of the fanatics trying to keep his brain dead wife's body functioning other than altruistic honor of his wife's last wishes. How many death threats do you think he gets on a daily basis? How do you think he feels about putting his new family at risk from some loon reaping revenge for Terri Shiavo? There is literally no upside to any of this for Michael Shiavo. I am forced to conclude that the only possible reason he is persevering with his quest is that he is honoring his loved one's last request.

4. Congress really stepped in it this time. The bill that was passed is so blatantly unconstitutional that I can't imagine it will survive the first court challenge. The bill would allow federal intervention in virtually any state law that the majority party disagrees with. The sovereignty of the states went right out the window. State laws are now meaningless since the legislature can now over-rule them. The republicans have only succeeded in alienating much of their political base by going completely against what the republican party has always professed to be for. Specifically, limited government and not letting government insert itself into our personal lives. The democrats wisely didn't try to stop the bill's passage. They just gave the republicans enough rope to hang themselves with.

People need to get off their emotional high horses and look objectively at the facts in this case as have been determined by years and years of adjudication by the Florida courts and the testimony of dozens of highly qualified doctors with irrefutable proof of Terri Shiavo's condition. Stop slandering Michael Shiavo and let this poor woman's body die (her brain died 15 years ago).

By the way, even if someone gave her a drink of water or a bite of food, she would very likely die from asphyxiation. Swallowing is a reflex but she may not have the ability to protect her airways. Why do you think she had a feeding tube to begin with? Some of these protesters getting arrested for trying to give her a cup of water are real morons.

[spidey]

Originally posted by Kayak Jones
It's a decision I hope to never have to make. I know hunters, myself included, who have shown more mercy to a wounded animal than this woman is being given. Starving and especially dying of thirst is a long, sad, pitiful way to go.

Actually not and for a couple reasons:

1. With no cerebral cortex, she is incapable of feeling pain, hunger or thirst.

2. Even if she had the ability to feel those things (which she doesn't but hypothetically...). The body goes into ketosis and feelings of hunger and thirst simply disappear. After some time, toxins build up in the blood and cause kidney failure. Then, electrolytes get out of balance causing heart arythmia, cardiac arrest, and death. Even people able to speak who have refused feeding tubes do not suffer as you might think. It is really a rather peaceful way to die.

[bad14u]

I guess I will chime in now.....I myself wouldn't want to see "what was my beautiful wife" evolve into this vegetable that Terri has become. Her beauty has gone, her way of life has diminished to nothing and her ability to function on her own has long been gone. Her husband has nothing to gain except to fulfill a wifes wish. I wouldn't want to be in her condition and I wouldn't want to trade places with him either. I will tell you this.....ever since Terri and her situation has been getting extensive news coverage, I have made damn sure that people know that I am not to go on living like that!

[Kayak Jones]

Originally posted by spidey
Actually not and for a couple reasons:

1. With no cerebral cortex, she is incapable of feeling pain, hunger or thirst.

2. Even if she had the ability to feel those things (which she doesn't but hypothetically...). The body goes into ketosis and feelings of hunger and thirst simply disappear. After some time, toxins build up in the blood and cause kidney failure. Then, electrolytes get out of balance causing heart arythmia, cardiac arrest, and death. Even people able to speak who have refused feeding tubes do not suffer as you might think. It is really a rather peaceful way to die.

Don't quote the circling the drain process to me good bro. I've been in the field as a paramedic for almost 25 years now so I know the drill i'm sure far better than you and am not speaking out of my ass as some will on this subject.

Facts are facts and the fact is that you have no idea what she does or doesn,t feel.

Fact: Effects of ESRD can be terribly painfull as will almost anyone suffering from it will attest.

Fact: Although theoretically possible for the "feelings of hunger" as you put it to disappear in ketosis , the physical effects of dehydration are most unpleasant. Excruciating as described by many accounts, for at least some period of time.

Fact: Cardiac arrhythmias resulting in any degree of infarct are routinely and extremely painfull, to the extent that one of the primary functions of emergency cardiac care is to stop the pain and resulting tissue death.

Fact: The solution she was receiving through her g-tube was a standard high carb, nutrient solution. It is therfore highly unlikely that she was in any more of a ketonic state at any given time than you are I might be, unless we had intentionally caused it through a drastically reduced carb intake.

As far as this being a peacefull way to die, that would be a major subjective assumption on anyones part.