Our government scares the poop out of me...

[Megiddo]

I guess what I'm missing, and I know I'm guitly of not knowing any better, is what you and PI mean about giving up freedom.

Basically that means that in an effort to keep us more secure, the government must take away personal rights. For instance, cops must have a search warrant to search your home car, personal effects. Under the Patriot Act, if you aresupected of terrorism, the government can bypass all of that.

[Shibby]

Thanks.

[Primal Instinct]

Furthermore, there is NO judicial oversight applied to such warrants. The federal judge HAS NO CHOICE but to issue a warrant when requested by law enforcement. He/she must or will be removed from his/her post. To complicate matters, this judge is not told any particulars such as what the suspect is being surveilled for, only that it is related to an "ongoing investigation" and after the warrant has been served, the judge is not even told the outcome of such an investigation. These things were all present before the Patriot Act as a built-in check and balance against abuse of authority. Stuff like J.Edgar Hoover of the FBI was guilty of. It's a license to snoop into other people's lives and look for trouble without even having evidence to suspect such people.

Anyway, these warrants are not presented to the suspect like you'd see on TV. In fact, YOU could be investigated right now and not know it or are even required to be told. The worst part of this all is that electronic surveillance (gps on your cell phone to track movements, cell phone records and wireless wiretaps called roving wiretaps, scan and copying your computer hard drive and all email correspondence, financial transactions, medical records and transactions, or even send a virus to track your keyboard strokes and website movements as a surveillance technique, etc.) and home, automobile searches can all be performed without your knowledge or consent. Who is there to protect your rights? No one. Anything can be "discovered" as evidence against you, if someone has an agenda against you. Furthermore, you will not even be informed of the outcome of such an investigation. These policies are just a few that were enacted with the ratification of the Patriot Act, which was passed in haste with little legislative review or debate and these policies directly conflict with our Constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizure, as well as many other protections afforded by our US Constitution. It has usurped our rights as citizens that were based upon the founding of this great nation.

The possibilities for abuse of power are far too tremendous to ignore. Under the definition of "suspected terrorist" ANYONE could fall within these very ambiguous guidelines. That is NOT a mistake and it was written purposefully that way to gain a wide latitude of authority over the citizenry. I strongly suggest that you all read the actual US Constitution and the Federalist Papers and then read the Patriot Act in depth as passed by 108th US Congress. You'll shit your pants when you finally realize exactly what slipped through the Congress. It actually goes against the principles of our republic but many people are too apathetic to take notice. When you finally realize that the gun barrel is pointing at you, it's already too late to act. Sounds very sensationalistic, huh? It's too bad that all of this is true.

[Megiddo]

Very good points P.I. In a nutshell, the government ceased to be what the founding fathers intended after the civil war.

[redsquirrel]

Do some more independent research and see how long the muslim extremists have been bombing/terrorizing western interests and allies around the globe. All long before we ever "occupied" as you put it.


Try starting with this....

USS Cole
US Embassy Kenya
World Trade Center 1993

No need to insult my intelligence, thank you. I have done PLENTY of research.

I am not disputing the fact that the muslim extremists haven't been doing this for a long time. What I AM disputing, is the fact that attacks have become more frequent and intensified due to US and Allied troops in Iraq.

And the 3 instances you referenced, are all against US interests. NONE of them were directed at our Allies. If you re-read my post I said that the FOREIGN bombings possibly could have been avoided had we not invaded Iraq, so please, don't tell me to do more research.

[Mr I]

[QUOTE=stonecold54 It may sound bad but has anyone every asked how much they are actually taxed and where that money goes and that they always want more? You get taxed on your income...you get taxed on stuff you buy with that income...you get taxed on money you save from that income. you get taxed if you invest that income....you get taxed if you die and someone inherits that income...you get taxed if you marry someone and combine that income... and then I watch the welfare rolls come in and see me every day...these people are the lowest of the low....not just down on their luck or temporarily unemployed these people are BUMS...I feel like kicking all their teeth out but then I would be forced to buy them new teeth and then pay for their viagra pills so they can make more babies with out fathers or mothers. :mad:[/QUOTE]

We get the same over here dude, when ever there are people willing to give there are plenty that are happy to take it!

One thing I have always been proud of in England is the welfare state (I.E free healthcare for all) introduced after WW II, paid for by an income tax, but even that may dissapear in time due to econimic pressures (too many BUMS not paying tax and claiming for everything like they fucking deserve it) and downright poor management in the national health service, soon we may have to adopt a private health insurance as well

[njjuicer]

imo most of the shit that ahppend could have been avoided but i think its jsut a ploy to make a one world order where wwere goign to be ruled by one and EVERYTHING we do will be monitored ie ez pass bar codes on licesens chips in ur dogs will be in us eventually pretty soon yous wont have any privacy and thatll be it but thats my take on it :wacko:

[Lmg2701]

We give up more freedoms year by year..... It's not a matter of "if" we will ever have another rebellion, it's a matter of "when."

Sooner or later people are going to get sick of the gov't telling you what you can and can't do. Sure, some can say we live in a free country and to some extent we do.

But to only say that "we live in a free country" is ridiculous.
Hate to bring it up but why does the gov't have a say if I want to take Anabolics.....(I can see the logic behind drugs to alter the mind, but to improve my physique....come on....)

[Primal Instinct]

The same stuff goes for the government's questionable right to impose a federal income tax Federal Income Tax Amendment of 1913 , protections against unreasonable search and seizure (Patriot Act), right to privacy concerning personal medical records (HIIPA- don't sign this form!) and many other things that were formerly afforded as protections and rights to a US citizen but have been weaseled out from us through deception or outright fear mongering.

[lxorl]

lots of things could have "possibly" happened if we had not entered iraq. oil could have possibly dropped to an all time low.. or maybe not. Sadam could have possibly distributed chemical weapons to terrorists ( we know he had them, he used them on his own people)

I dont think the us entering Iraq gave terrorists any more reason to attack than they already have in their minds. I think the US just needed to plan things out a little better. Terrorism isnt going anywhere , whether we sit back and do nothing or take an active role against it.

No need to insult my intelligence, thank you. I have done PLENTY of research.

I am not disputing the fact that the muslim extremists haven't been doing this for a long time. What I AM disputing, is the fact that attacks have become more frequent and intensified due to US and Allied troops in Iraq.

And the 3 instances you referenced, are all against US interests. NONE of them were directed at our Allies. If you re-read my post I said that the FOREIGN bombings possibly could have been avoided had we not invaded Iraq, so please, don't tell me to do more research.

[dreamgirl]

you get taxed if you die and someone inherits that income...

Actually Bush got rid of the "death tax"

We were very lucky that my Grandma didn't die during the Clinton Admin. - the gov. would have taken 55% of her money. My Grandfather worked very hard and invested wisely to ensure her wellfare. It's nice to know that thier children inherited his money instead of the government.

[redsquirrel]

Sadam could have possibly distributed chemical weapons to terrorists ( we know he had them, he used them on his own people)

Although Bush said the British gov't had information that Iraq had purchased uranium from Africa, he also had information from his own staff that that was not true. In fact, a month before we invaded Iraq, he was told just the latter by an official who had actually gone to Iraq and found no evidence of any WMD. Which would also corraborate with the UN not finding any either.

...And 3 years later, we still haven't found any of any reasonable maginitude. The ones they did find were from about 20 years ago buried in the desert.

So, as an American, I feel completely misled. I feel this war was a direct result and retaliation for 9/11; against an innocent country, so to speak. They weren't involved in the attacks. In fact, Bush TRIED to find some link Hussein had to the Al-Queda members who wer involved, and could find NO link.

I don't feel safer now that Saddam is no longer the dictator...not one bit. I feel LESS safe. I feel less safe that he is out of power, I feel less safe about a possible terrorist attack, and I feel less safe as our civil liberties are being taken away one by one.

[bad14u]

We give up more freedoms year by year..... It's not a matter of "if" we will ever have another rebellion, it's a matter of "when."

:agree: May not happen in my lifetime, but it will happen. With the military recruitment numbers going down, it is just a matter of time before the gov. will not be able to defend itself.

So, as an American, I feel completely misled. I feel this war was a direct result and retaliation for 9/11; against an innocent country, so to speak. They weren't involved in the attacks. In fact, Bush TRIED to find some link Hussein had to the Al-Queda members who wer involved, and could find NO link.

Granted they found no link as of yet, but you can't just pack up and leave after invading a country when you BELIEVED you were doing the right thing!

[Mr I]

Although Bush said the British gov't had information that Iraq had purchased uranium from Africa, he also had information from his own staff that that was not true. In fact, a month before we invaded Iraq, he was told just the latter by an official who had actually gone to Iraq and found no evidence of any WMD. Which would also corraborate with the UN not finding any either.

...And 3 years later, we still haven't found any of any reasonable maginitude. The ones they did find were from about 20 years ago buried in the desert.

So, as an American, I feel completely misled. I feel this war was a direct result and retaliation for 9/11; against an innocent country, so to speak. They weren't involved in the attacks. In fact, Bush TRIED to find some link Hussein had to the Al-Queda members who wer involved, and could find NO link.

I don't feel safer now that Saddam is no longer the dictator...not one bit. I feel LESS safe. I feel less safe that he is out of power, I feel less safe about a possible terrorist attack, and I feel less safe as our civil liberties are being taken away one by one.

Good points there one and all RS, I also have a few;

1) IMO Sadam was a ruthless dictator that was commiting genocide, I feel
proud that my government (British) acted along with the US against him
and it would be great if the people of Iraq had the right to elect their
leader without intimidation.

2) I'm less convinced however that Sadam's genocidal antics were the only
reason we entered Iraq, if they were then why arn't we in Africa dealing
with President Mugabi?

3) 9/11 had Afganistani originating hatred written all over it but for some
reason we went at Iraq with everything and only a token military action
against Afganistan?

4) US & GBR campaigns in far East have brought terrorist attacks our way
and I'm sure its not hard to culture a nations youth to hate us when we
apparently have everything and they have nothing, they must feel very
jelous. But we only have what we have through hard work, hard thought
and a want to improve our well being and forge a better life for our kids.

5) If the Muslim fundamentalist way of life is so great then why are they all
living in shit? why would anyone (with a brain and a future) want to follow
that way of life?

6) IMO if we wern't so reliant on natural rescources; gas, oil etc and we
could safely come up with an alternative useable source; nuclear, wind
whatever, then we wouldn'y need to buy, take, negociate with these
people for stuff we dont need. Thereafter, if anyone in our country or
abroad has a problem with our way of life then they can go live else
where!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Megiddo]

The same stuff goes for the government's questionable right to impose a federal income tax Federal Income Tax Amendment of 1913 , protections against unreasonable search and seizure (Patriot Act), right to privacy concerning personal medical records (HIIPA- don't sign this form!) and many other things that were formerly afforded as protections and rights to a US citizen but have been weaseled out from us through deception or outright fear mongering.

Quite simply, the 14th amendment destroyed the constitution and all amendments afterwards are unconstitutional.