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Originally posted by SloppyJo
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I'm not talking about their overall stats. I'm talking about the stats of them against each other. Shaq was not exceptionally dominate. He out scored him in only 6 games and many of those were close. The point is, he could've been much more, but wasn't because yao had him covered a lot. Number two, you take shaq out of the paint, and he can't make the shots. So that's why yao is a more complete player. -
Originally posted by SloppyJo
This is the point of my comment. There is so much bullshit surrounding Shaq. I would be interested to see an NBA team pick up a linebacker just to defend shaq. Then what? That's all it would take to make him nobody. Take a player like Kobe, Lebron, Duncan... there is so much more to those players. Without players like Kobe or Wade, Shaq would be just average. You need a key gaurd to feed it to Shaq inside the paint. The caliber of players I mentions as great player don't need others to play there game.Comment
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Did LA even make the playoffs without Shaq? Yea, didn't think so.Originally posted by Shibby
And by the way, when Shaq played for the Magic he didn't have anybody else on his team and avg almost 30 pts/game. And to be quite honest, if he didn't have anyone else on his team he would be scoring MORE POINTS. Cause you wouldnt have the selfishness of Kobe wanting to take 20+ shots a game. You'd have shitty players that would dump it off to the best player on the team and he would score 40+ points a game. You think it's that difficult to make an entry pass to him when he takes up the whole paint? Any guard in the league can make an entry pass to him when he posts up, if they couldn't, they wouldn't be in the league very long. I could fucking make an entry pass to him.
If anything he made Kobe better. Do you know how much attention he draws? He gets the ball and usually gets double-teamed almost immediately. Well that opens up things for other players because if he has 2 players on him, then somebody on his team is open. If you knew anything about basketball, you would know that this is one of his greatest assets.
Pick up a linebacker just to defend Shaq? So is pro basketball that easy? I guess any football player can throw on a Jersey step on the basketball court and just dominate the best center in the league? That is the most rediculous statement I've ever heard. Yeah he's only been playing b'ball for what, his entire life, so any joe shmoe that is big is going to stop him. Yeah, NBA Finals MVP 3 times, League MVP, He's been on every single All-Star team since he was a rookie, He's had All-NBA-Team honors 11 out of 13 seasons and All-NBA-Defensive Honors 3 times, and How many championships has he won now? But yeah, any big linebacker could def stop him :rolleyes:
Again, YOU CAN'T TAKE HIME OUT OF THEPAINT!!! that's the whole point, you can't stop him from getting position, you can't stop him from moving under the goal.... Why the hell would I want my Center taking 10 ft+ shots... I want my center under the basket, rebounding, blocking, and clogging the middle.... exactly what Shaq does and exactly why his fg% is higher than Yao's, higher than Kobe's, higher than LeBron's, and higher than Duncan's. And exactly why he is considered the best center in the league by everybody but appearently you two.Originally posted by beefcake
By the way, Shaq scored 61 points against the Clippers in 2000... remember that's without making any 3's like Kobe.Comment
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Sloppyjo and Shaq sitting in a tree... :PComment
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Kobe is the most talented player in the NBA. Nobody can stop him one-on-one. Yeah, he's selfish, but who's he supposed to share the ball with? Since Shaq left there's ne other scoring threat on the Lakers.
Shaq creates more match-up problems for other teams, but Kobe is a more talented player, probably the most talented since Jordan. In fact, Kobe consistantly makes shots I don't think Jordan could make.Comment
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Originally posted by SloppyJo
Shaq didn't have anybody in Orlando? Ever hear of Anferne Hardaway? He was pretty damn good when he played for Orlando. One of his greatest ASSets is his big ass. Nobody can keep him out of the paint because he's so damn big. That has nothing to do with talent. You don't have to play basketball your entire life to be able to throw your 300lbs into the guy behind you until he falls down. I saw Shaq dunk and hang onto the rim so that it "broke away" and his feet were flat on the ground while he was still holding onto the rim. So he can dunk...big deal. So could I in college and I'm only 6'0". My point is that most of what Shaq is able to do is because he's so friggin big. No doubt he's good and he does dominate the paint. He uses his physical abilities very well. I just don't agree that he's as dominant as you seem to think he is.
Stats aren't everything. Every great player needs other good players. The obvious example is Michael Jordan. He was great by himself, but he had Scottie Pippen and Steve Kerr and Rodman. Hakeem Olajuwan...now there was a dominant center. He could pass, he could shoot, he could rebound, he could block shots. You couldn't keep him out of the paint because he was too fast and too smart. Ever see that guy spin and dance his way to the hoop? Beautiful. Olajuwan made his defender fall down because he was tripping over his own feet trying to keep up, not because he outweighed him by 100lbs. He could make shots from anywhere...the free throw line...straight up jump shot...turn-around-fade-away from the baseline while he was falling out of bounds...you name it. He's the shot block leader in NBA history. They didn't keep that stat when Chamberlain or Russell played so who knows how many they might have had, but Olajuwan was still an amazing shot blocker.Comment
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Originally posted by Control
Talented...yeah. Make shots that Jordan couldn't make? In what universe? Jordan didn't have to pull 30 foot shots out of his ass because he could get just about any shot he wanted. He made every shot he took seem effortless. The game is different now. Defense is all but non existent now. Jordan was by far one of the best offensive players the game has ever seen but he was also one of the best defenders in the game. He dominated both sides of the ball, the WHOLE game, not just points scored. Look at these stats: Kobe doesn't even deserve to hold Jordan's cup of Gatorade. Jordan went to the finals 6 times, won 6 times and was named finals MVP 6 times. Doesn't look like Kobe will ever get back to the finals the way he's going. He wants so much of the spotlight that he drives other good players away.
Five-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1987-88, 1990-91, 1991-92, 1995-96, 1997-98)
Ten-time All-NBA First Team selection (1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
Selected in 1996 as one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History" That was before he stopped playing!!!!!!!!
A member of six Chicago Bulls NBA championship teams (1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98)
Six-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
The 1987-88 NBA Defensive Player of the Year and record nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection (1987-88 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
Entering 2002-03, ranked first in NBA history in scoring average (31.0 ppg), second in steals (2,391), fourth in points (30,652) and in field-goals made (11,513), fifth in free-throws made (7,061), sixth in field-goals attempted (23,010) and eighth in free-throws attempted (8,448)
Closed the 1997-98 season as the Bulls' all-time franchise leader in points, rebounds (5,836), assists (5,012), steals, games (930), field-goals made and attempted and free-throws made and attempted (8,115)
Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in scoring (10)
Shares the NBA record with Wilt Chamberlain for most consecutive seasons leading the league in scoring (seven, 1986-87 to 1992-93)
Holds the NBA record for most consecutive games scoring in double-digits (842)
Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in field-goals made (10) and attempted (10)
Led the NBA in steals in 1987-88 (3.16 spg), 1989-90 (2.77 spg) and 1992-93 (2.83 spg)
Holds the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one half (20 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most most free-throws attempted in one half (23 in the same game)
Shares the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one quarter (14 against the Utah Jazz on 11/15/89 and against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most free-throws attempted in one quarter (23 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92)
Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average (41.0 ppg in 1993)
Entering the 2002-03 season, ranks as the all-time NBA Finals leader in three-pointers made (42), second in three-point attempts (114), third in points (1,176), fourth in steals (62), fifth in field-goals made (438), sixth in assists (209) and free-throws made (258), seventh in field-goals attempted (911) and eighth in free-throws attempted (320)
Holds the NBA Playoffs record for highest career scoring average (33.4 ppg)
Established an NBA Playoffs record with 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 5/20/86
Entering the 2002-03 season ranks as the all-time NBA Playoffs leader in field-goals attempted (4,497), free-throws made (1,463) and attempted (1,766), second in steals (376) and field-goals made (2,188), fifth in assists (1,022), seventh in three-point attempts (446) and ninth in three-pointers made (148)
Recorded two playoff career triple-doubles, both against the New York Knicks (5/9/89 and 6/2/93)
Participated in 13 NBA All-Star Games (1985, 1987-1993, 1996-98, 2002-03), starting 13 times, and missed another due to injury
Named the MVP of the 1988, 1996 and 1998 NBA All-Star Games
All-time NBA All-Star Game leader in steals (35) and ranks second in field-goal attempts (206), third in points (242), fourth in scoring average (20.2 ppg), and eighth in assists (52)
Notched the first triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland
Won the Slam Dunk Contest in 1987 and 1988, also participating in 1985
Notched his 28th career triple-double, with 30 points, 11 rebounds and 10 assists, against the Toronto Raptors on 4/14/97
Returned from retirement against the Indiana Pacers on 3/19/95 and posted 19 points, six rebounds, six assists and three steals in 43 minutesComment
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[QUOTE=babyblues]Talented...yeah. Make shots that Jordan couldn't make? In what universe? Jordan didn't have to pull 30 foot shots out of his ass because he could get just about any shot he wanted. He made every shot he took seem effortless. The game is different now. Defense is all but non existent now. Jordan was by far one of the best offensive players the game has ever seen but he was also one of the best defenders in the game. He dominated both sides of the ball, the WHOLE game, not just points scored. Look at these stats: Kobe doesn't even deserve to hold Jordan's cup of Gatorade. Jordan went to the finals 6 times, won 6 times and was named finals MVP 6 times. Doesn't look like Kobe will ever get back to the finals the way he's going. He wants so much of the spotlight that he drives other good players away.[QUOTE=babyblues]
Jordan played with Scottie Pippen, Steve Kerr and Dennis Rodman. Who does Kobe have now that Shaq is gone? Lamar Odom....and really that's about it. You can't count on anybody else to score, so it's all on him. I'm not saying Kobe's a better player than Jordan all around, but when he gets in his zone he makes some insane shots, it's impossible to stop him at times.Comment
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http://slamonline.com/Bobak/JordanShaq/
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Jordan or Shaq? Your choice.
by Bobak Esfarjani
You can email Bobak by clicking here
From the moment Shaquille Rashaun O’Neal stepped onto the NBA scene, he was a monster among men. Drafted number one overall by the Orlando Magic the 7-1 behemoth immediately dominated the court. As a rookie Shaq averaged 23.4 points per game, 13.9 rebounds per game and 3.53 blocks per game, earning him Rookie of the Year honors. His second season he jumped to 29.3 points per game and stayed around 13 boards.
Since then, Shaq has never had a season where he averaged less than 21 points or 10 rebounds a game. Never once in 13 seasons, with three different teams. Each of the three teams Shaq has been on have immediately been elevated to contending status by his presence.
He is clearly one of the most dominant player in the game at sixth all-time in points per game and his 325 pound agile frame makes him virtually impossible to guard.
Yet when the glow of his smile and the flamboyance of his demeanor are gone and forgotten, where does Shaq reside as far as the NBA’s history? Entering the last leg of his career on a lucrative $100 million contract, how will he finish molding his legacy?
With the Heat having come so close to the Finals last season, and its roster boosting offseason, it is possible that Shaq could guide his third franchise to an NBA Finals, solidifying him as the best player of all-time.
Clearly, it’s not that simple and the competition for that spot is stiff, with Michael Jordan being the current resident, but Shaq already has several things on his side.
In 1996, before the three championship rings and after only fives seasons in the league, Shaq was selected as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA history. He ranks not only just sixth in points per game but 18th in rebounds per game, third in field goal percentage, and ninth in blocks per game.
He has taken two different NBA teams to the Finals, and won three rings in a row with one of them. Since the reign of the Celtics in the ‘60s only Jordan’s Bulls and Shaq’s Lakers have successfully completed a three-peat.
Jordan clearly has won more championships than Shaq—double to be exact—but the fact that Jordan stayed in one place his entire career can’t be overlooked. When a player becomes a focal-point of a franchise, it takes time for both chemistry and management to find their places around him.
Jordan had seven years with the Bulls before things started to roll, and by then it was clear that he was the epicenter of the team. But Shaq, by moving from team to team has lost valuable years in the playoffs because of the time it takes for teams to develop around their stars.
Despite that, he still took his teams to new heights. After the Heat traded every core player besides Dwyane Wade for Shaq last summer, they still made it one possession away from the Finals. And the fact that they didn’t reach it was because the team strayed away from giving Shaq the ball, another variable between Shaq and the likes of Jordan.
Being a guard, Jordan could get the ball for himself whenever he pleased. Yet Shaq relies on his guards and forwards to give him the ball, and even though he has played with offensively brilliant guards with the likes of Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, and Wade he still has accumulated enough points to be sixth all-time.
And that has a lot to do with his shooting percentage. Jordan doesn’t even rank in the top 29 in field goal percentage, and while the argument that his shots generally came from farther from the basket is valid, the point that one did more with his shot opportunities than the other is not lost.
Shaq has taken roughly seven thousand less shots in two hundred less games than Jordan but is only five spots behind him in points per game.
Two other heavy stats are the six Finals MVP trophies and the five regular season MVPs that Jordan has. These numbers are clearly daunting and clearly exceptional, but with every championship Shaq has won he has also won a Finals MVP to go with it. He has but one regular season MVP, but how much of that has to do with his size as opposed to his skill?
Just this past season the debate raged whether Steve Nash was awarded the trophy because voters were basically more impressed that a short white guy could put up such amazing numbers. Just because Shaq didn’t win the trophy does that mean he blatantly didn’t deserve it? If that’s the case then when Jordan lost the MVP to Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, does that mean that he didn’t deserve it over them? Didn’t Jordan beat both those players in the playoffs, and didn’t Shaq’s Heat put up a better showing than Nash’s Suns in the playoffs?
Things like personal awards are too subjective to be implemented in greatest of all time talk, because people never remember the circumstances or feelings at those particular times. How much did Jordan’s vast range of marketing affect the opinion of others, while aside from Kazaam, Shaq’s influence outside basketball is rather minimal.
The most telling stat, to my opinion, is the fact that Shaq has taken two different basketball franchises, from two different coasts, in two different eras of the NBA to the NBA’s most glorious stage. And if he does it with his third team, the Heat, that’s an accomplishment that cannot be quickly ignored. No other major candidate, with the exception of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, for the greatest-of-all-time built their legacy with different teams,
Bottom line, if you were the general manager of a team during an all-time draft, who would you pick first?
-Bobak EsfarjaniComment
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It's hard enough comparing players from different eras but comparing players at different positions is impossible. If Shaq was even average at shooting free-throws he would probably be the most valuble player of all time. But since you can foul him and you know he's going to miss at least one free-throw, it makes him alot less dominant.Originally posted by SloppyJoComment
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But come on, he is a triple threat. Basketball player, actor and an amazing rapper.... almost made it typing that whole sentence without laughing.Originally posted by ShibbyComment
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:laughnew:Originally posted by snowshark84Comment
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Originally posted by snowshark84
LOL :laughnew:Comment
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Sorry Control, Kobe isnt in Jordan's league. MJ won so many games by consistantly hitting amazing shots. He is the greatest.Originally posted by ControlComment
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^ I pretty much agree with Controls comment.Comment
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