Why Barry Bonds is Worth Cheering For...

[ROCKILLER]

I'm not really into the whole bonds debate but I like to hear what others think. I'm a Giants fan and a Bonds fan and I think he used steroids. Does it change anything? Not to me or any other people who knew it before. Did we really need the media to tell us that bonds and McGwire and Canseco were a little bigger than they should have been? Baseball players are pretty notorious for not being the strictest about their workouts and discipline. Kinda ties in with the greenies debate. The thing I find most interesting is the difference between the game when the past records were set and the game now. Especially with the fact that Bonds, along with several others to a much lesser degree, gets so many intentional or near intentional walks. Statistically he would have had the record a long time ago if he was pitched to every time he was up.

[meat12]

Baseball players are pretty notorious for not being the strictest about their workouts and discipline.

This is only of recently, since steroids had been introduced to baseball. If you look at players from the seventies and early eighties baseball players were all out of shape. Back then they were actually urged not to workout.

The thing I find most interesting is the difference between the game when the past records were set and the game now

Yes the batting has gotten better, but so has the pitching as well.

Statistically he would have had the record a long time ago if he was pitched to every time he was up.

I see what your saying and you do have a good point. Babe Ruth was also walked over 2000 times maybe not as much as Bonds but over 2000 walks is alot.

Also, as GoYankees brought up they do play more games than they used to in a season. And at the time Roger Marris broke the single season record an asterisk was a huge issue and it really hasn't been brought up lately, probably due to all the steroids talk going on.

[ROCKILLER]

This is only of recently, since steroids had been introduced to baseball. If you look at players from the seventies and early eighties baseball players were all out of shape. Back then they were actually urged not to workout.




Yes the batting has gotten better, but so has the pitching as well.




I see what your saying and you do have a good point. Babe Ruth was also walked over 2000 times maybe not as much as Bonds but over 2000 walks is alot.

Also, as GoYankees brought up they do play more games than they used to in a season. And at the time Roger Marris broke the single season record an asterisk was a huge issue and it really hasn't been brought up lately, probably due to all the steroids talk going on.

Im stink at the internet so I'm not going to be able to break up your quote but #1
True, what I meant was that perhaps bonds could naturally attain the muscle mass that he did and so could some of the others but I think they use it as a shortcut as well. Also, its probably not all their fault either. travelling and doing all that a baseball player does will wear you out after a while

#2 I;m not just thinking the batting and pitching. Its everything. The equipment like bats and gloves and cleats. The parks and the lighting and the years of intense training. I think it all adds up to a point where its almost ridiculous to compare players from different eras.

#3 Yea, its kinda funny how all of the other issues that seemed important fade a little when the media gets ahold of something like this.

It seems like everybody has their own book out now.

[meat12]

Im stink at the internet so I'm not going to be able to break up your quote but #1
True, what I meant was that perhaps bonds could naturally attain the muscle mass that he did and so could some of the others but I think they use it as a shortcut as well. Also, its probably not all their fault either. travelling and doing all that a baseball player does will wear you out after a while

#2 I;m not just thinking the batting and pitching. Its everything. The equipment like bats and gloves and cleats. The parks and the lighting and the years of intense training. I think it all adds up to a point where its almost ridiculous to compare players from different eras.

#3 Yea, its kinda funny how all of the other issues that seemed important fade a little when the media gets ahold of something like this.

It seems like everybody has their own book out now.

Yeah I got ya, I guess I was trying to be argumentitive for no real reason.
Well it'll be intresting to see how the whole thing plays out.

[coffee-guy]

You fuckers are starting to make me look like Rado. Don't make my thread end up in the "argument" forum or I will damn you all :D...

[ROCKILLER]

I didnt see it as an arguement meat, I was just clarifying and I figured it was easier to follow if I used numbers. The arguement seems to be about whether or not you like bonds or think he should be punished in some way. As far as that goes, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I dont really care what anybody thinks because none of us are going to change our minds either way so its not even worth argueing about that stuff.

dont worry FH no one was calling eachother gay or posting pictures of what is supposed to be eachother, just bringing up some intersting things to think about.

:dancingne yea baseball and :bbq: tonight

[go Yankees]

true, stadiums are tiny...Yankee stadium used to be 464 ft to center, now it's 408 and that's STILL one of the deep centerss in the game. Imagine how many 430 foot, not-even-warning-track flies Mickey Mantle hit.

completely different game today, from night games all the time, no scheduled double-headers, the splitter, relief pitching, no choking up on 2-strike counts...

[meat12]

I didnt see it as an arguement meat, I was just clarifying and I figured it was easier to follow if I used numbers. The arguement seems to be about whether or not you like bonds or think he should be punished in some way. As far as that goes, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I dont really care what anybody thinks because none of us are going to change our minds either way so its not even worth argueing about that stuff.

True, It's all just a male version of a soap opera anyways :D

[meat12]

dont worry FH no one was calling eachother gay or posting pictures of what is supposed to be eachother, just bringing up some intersting things to think about.

Yeah I figured since rado didn't post in this thread the gay comments would be at a minimum. Or atleast until he reads this one :D

[hitmansb]

Barry hit a nice blast off the facing of the upper deck in Philly last night...450 foot shot.

[hitmansb]

^^^And on that note, if Barry was 'all steroids' like his critics like to insinuate, then why is he still able to crank a 450 foot blast now that he's being tested???

[Shibby]

What I notice when people put up the comparison pics is how many years have passed. Could he have made most if not all the gains natraully? Also everyone gets on the idea that he wouldn't have any of this without steroids. I feel that would be like somone judging 90% of us in the gym simply because we use gear.

[bad14u]

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, Bonds has tainted the record books with his HR's. Aaron, Ruth and Maris set records naturally. If they had been juiced up back then the records would probably be unbreakable. Granted, they weren't testing back then so if they were juiced we will never know. We can obviously see by their shape that they weren't huge. Ruth was big in size but that was do to his indulgence in food and alcohol. He was like John Daly is today in the world of golf, overweight and out of shape but used his weight to swing and hit the ball far. Henry Aaron has nothing in his background to taint his record except his God given talent. If his bat or ball was juiced, we will never know, BUT we do know that Bonds was juiced. He and McGwire broke and set records that they would not have even come close to if they had not cheated, and by doing so they not only cheated the game, they cheated the fans and have tainted the record books and history. Just MHO.

[go Yankees]

What I notice when people put up the comparison pics is how many years have passed. Could he have made most if not all the gains natraully?

no, absolutely not, he was 34 years old when he started...yeah, progression pics are fun, especially from his rookie year, but if you look at 1997-2001, a much smaller time-frame, you can see the difference we're all talking about.

basically, what we're saying is that you don't see that kind of improvement on that level of performance AND that kind of physique at that age, without help

[go Yankees]

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, Bonds has tainted the record books with his HR's. Aaron, Ruth and Maris set records naturally. If they had been juiced up back then the records would probably be unbreakable. Granted, they weren't testing back then so if they were juiced we will never know. We can obviously see by their shape that they weren't huge. Ruth was big in size but that was do to his indulgence in food and alcohol. He was like John Daly is today in the world of golf, overweight and out of shape but used his weight to swing and hit the ball far. Henry Aaron has nothing in his background to taint his record except his God given talent. If his bat or ball was juiced, we will never know, BUT we do know that Bonds was juiced. He and McGwire broke and set records that they would not have even come close to if they had not cheated, and by doing so they not only cheated the game, they cheated the fans and have tainted the record books and history. Just MHO.

that's true, there's a lot that's tainted, but when you have probably a whole lot of hitters using steroids, Bonds and McGwire really just stood out from the rest. In 1968 when the mound was higher, pitchers had a lower ERA and the highest batting average was .301. That year, Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA. Is it fair for that record to stand when today's pitchers don't have the benefit of a high mound like that? What about the smaller ballparks today, should today's pitchers have lower ERAs because they're giving up HRs in smaller parks?

the trick is, you have to reward those who dominate in their era, and this is the steroid era of baseball...for me, there already is an asterisk by Bonds' totals. But I also look at baseball's record book and see asterisks by almost all of the single season records.

the bottom line is, Aaron is entitled to say what he wants about Bonds, steroid use, and breaking the record, but IMO, it's almost impossible to fairly compare players across decades like that