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Curious what everyone thinks about the Israel situation? It seems like it is just getting more and more heated, & we're sending 5 warships to help get American citizens out. It doesn't look like Israel is looking to have a diplomatic solution, and at this point, it doesn't look like other countries are trying to make or ask them to do so. I'm all for staying out of their business, but I'm a little surprised that they're not being asked to refrain from bombing the Hezbollah. Thoughts?
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Sadly enough I don't even know what it's all about (aside from the cyclic scenario of the mideast) so I don't have an educated opinion to give. I've been so wrapped up in my own life and recent changes that I have neglected to pay the rest of the world any mind.Last edited by blm; 07-18-06, 01:15 PM. -
Israel already had designs to do this stuff for quite some time. It's unbridled expansionism to plunder resources belonging to another nation. The kidnapped Israeli soldiers were simply a pretext to justify an invasion of Lebanon....AGAIN. They were waiting on such an event to continue their designs on Lebanon.
This whole thing is really about one thing. What's THE most important commodity in the middle east? It's not oil. It's water. Desalinization plants are far too expensive for Israel unless the US foots the bill for them. It isn't happening anytime soon though because we're talking trillions of dollars. So, the more economical choice is invasion and nationbuilding in the middle east. Israel can use the US to do the heavy lifting while they take care of the more local stuff.
You see, Israel already controls between 40- 50% of all of the fresh water in the region. Still they can't get enough and need even more as their population expands. The 1967 War was REALLY about water rights. The Israelis diverted a lot of water NEEDED by the indigenous arabs and the arabs responded by cutting the supply. Israel responded by forming the Israeli National Water Carrier, which diverted even MORE water from these regions to Israel. The arab nations responded by suprise military attack on Israel. However, Israel defeated them in a turn of events. 1973 also had underlying water tensions as the initiation point. Hell, the original Egypt-Israeli peace proposal (Camp David Accord with Prseident Jimmy Carter as the mediator) specifically stated that at least 1% of the Nile would be diverted from Egypt to Israel. It was rejected by Anwar Sadat because the arabs of the region would see him as a traitor. As it was, he was assassinated by arabs in 1981 and that probably had a lot to do with it.
Israel invaded Lebanon in the early 80's initially to make regime change and install a christian based government friendly to Israel. During this process, they would annex the entire southern portion of Israel in order to obtain the Litani River and divert the water to Israel. Hezbollah was formed to combat this Israekli aggression and Iran and Syria funded them and weapons were procured from many different nations. This is why the US (under Ronald Reagan) sent marines to Beruit. They were there to bolster the Israeli presence there. However, they (and the US by extension) then became defacto targets of terrorism. The marine barracks were blown up by a truck bomb in 1983 and 241 people were killed. Reagan pulled the rest of the troops out shortly afterwards.
TYhe Israeli initiative to control southern Lebanon was halted in 2002 when the Palestinian intifadah began and Israel need their troops home to put down the Palestinian uprising. Since then, things have changed considerably and the situation has become tenable for Israel in recent months. So, attention gets shifted back to the plan to control southern Lebanon for the water, convieniently using Bush's terrorist doctrine as an excuse to invade and occupy again.
The US invasion of Iraq was for more than oil and Israeli national security. It was to gain control of the fresh water of the Tigris, Euphrates, Great Zab and little Zab rivers. If Iraq gets settled with a US-friendly government, there will be a water pipeline built to supply Israel with water from that nation. They already are strangling Jordan by heavily diverting the Jordan and the Yarmouk Rivers. They won't give up Gaza (25% of all Israeli fresh water) nor the Golan Heights either because they draw water from these areas as well. So that's why Israel only offered pockets of Israel in some of those areas in the formation of a Palestinian state. They'll never allow another nation or people to control what they feel is their fresh water supplies. It will get worse before it gets better. It's all about water and they'll take out anyone who gets in their way. If you control the region's water supplies you control the entire middle east.Comment
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Damn...I'm glad I asked the question because that was a very enlightening response you gave PI. Thx.Comment
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good info...Comment
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great info there primal......it just seems like whenever theres some war or a problem Israel is behind it... :hmmm:Comment
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No offense to Primal Instinct, but it's not about water. This conflict goes back much farther than the past hundred years.
It's about LAND!!!!!!!!
They've been fighting over that piece of land for thousands of years. The nations surrounding Israel would each love to wipe them clean off the map. Like I said, this goes back thousands of years. Israel once occupied the land of Israel and much of Palestine and Jordan. They were conquered by the Assyrians who were conquered by the Babylonians who were conquered by the Persians who were conquered by Alexander the Great. When he died, eventually the Romans, then the Muslems, then you had the Crusades, then the Mamluks, then the Ottomans, then eventually British rule, and then in 1948 the State of Israel was created and once again Israelites were allowed to occupy that land and rule themselves as a nation. The Arab nations of today have been trying to erradicate the Israeli people ever since. Everybody wants the same piece of land. Humanitarian concerns may involve water, but the conflict has been in process for thousands of years.Last edited by babyblues; 07-18-06, 04:08 PM.Comment
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Wow, I can't tell you how much I take offense to that comment. Israel's behind it?!?! Almost every time you read about some incident involving Israel, it's Israel's response to an attack on their country. Knock it off, Hurley.Originally posted by hurley
And BTW, my last name is Cohn, from the Hebrew word "kohen" (or cohen) meaning a direct male decendent of the Biblical Aaron, brother of Moses. In other words my family's lineage goes back to the tribe of Levi in Biblical times. My great grandfather was a first generation Jewish immigrant to the states. Please be more tactful in how you speak of the Israeli people. There may also be people on this board who's families are of Arab decent, so give them the same courtesy and try not to offend them either.Last edited by babyblues; 07-18-06, 04:23 PM.Comment
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:baby: i guess that explains all your whining....Comment
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Was that really necessary?Originally posted by hurleyComment
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kill them all take there oil and make walmarts and home depots thats what id doComment
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:hmmm:Comment
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This is all indirectly, or, depending how you view it, directly, the result of the splitting of land after WWII. The hezbollah have outright stated that they won't rest until israel is eliminated, the palestinians have fought forever for their own nation (which they can't run worth shit due to infighting and widespread corruption). Ariel Sharon, who at one time was considered one of the most hawkish of PM's for israel actually made a ton of concessions to allow the palestinians to have their own land.
however after the last elections, the hezbollah in palestine won and more problems were created. there are two factions of the hezbollah, those that are moderate and stated they'd abide by the treaties, and the ones who won't (the "old guard" so to speak) which is based in syria, hence israel buzzing their leaders house w/ several fighter planes. The portion of hezbollah who refuses to recognize the independence of israel doesn't want to lose control, and its their factions that orchestrated the several raids in which israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
israel wisely refuses to negotiate, not that they don't have something to gain from this invasion, but I hardly think it was a huge plot that they were waiting for the chance to hatch. negotiating w/ hezbollah and having a prisoner exchange would only encourage further actions of that sort in the future, this is the same reason why the US government refuses to negotiate with terrorists as we don't wish to encourage futher acts. at the same time israel feels it should be safe from rocket attacks.
so israel has made conditions that aren't really feasible for peace... they want to have lebanon send troops to control the border which would essentially create another civil war in that many lebanese troops wouldn't dare fight their own "brethren," israel doesn't want an independent foreign (UN) force to guard the area because they'd be prevented from making further incursions due to the outcry that would create, etc.
in all, its a bunch of children who can't play well and refuse to compromise. everyone wants a piece of the pie.Comment
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anyone notice how the most adament of tv reporters usually have an overly simplified idea of what's going on? there are so many factors that entire books have been written about this subject!Comment
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Originally posted by babyblues
No offense taken, babyblues. This is an interesting discussion topic. If you really want to test the land versus water theory then take some notes in the following year. See if there is an occupation zone established in southern Lebanon at or above the Litani River and whether Israeli water diversion projects to bring the water south. Israeli National Water Carrier. Remember that name and check on their projects in a year. We will see clearly what is behind such invasions. There is a precedent for war between Israel and the surrounding arab states based upon water rights. It is a very sore topic there. Also, watch for water pipeline talks once Iraq gets settled, if ever. Lastly, if this current crisis escalates and Israel attacks Syria via airstrikes, watch what happens to Syrian hydroelectric dams on the Euphrates River. They will be targeted early on in an airstrike. I think that these actions would prove my theory beyond a reasonable doubt but one could always see things differently depending upon their personal observations.
You see, I think that it IS about land - but to a lesser extent- to support Israel's expanding population. However, what good is any tract of land (in this case, desert) without an auqifer or nearby rivers that can support any measure of modern needs? It is for the most part uninhabitable and the land is useless without water. When you can divert freshwater from other sources via man-made canals, then you can irrigate the land for agriculture, provide drinking water and establish housing and sewage systems. You can also expand your population until it reaches a new threshold of geographical limitations. Could you live in a home in which the surrounding neighborhood wouldn't allow you to pipe in fresh water for your personal needs? No showers, washing clothes, drinking and cooking water, sewage system, or irrigation for a vegetable garden? Of course not. But they have this land and need the water to survive there. Yet with such an expanding population and limited resources, everyone in the region suffers the consequences.
It's like living near a large manufacturing plant or a hospital. Water pressure absolutely sucks in the neighborhood because this mammoth entity is using much of it up for its own devices. It really pisses people off. However, in the case of the middle east, it is not just a neighborhood but an entire region that suffers and the offenders seek an even larger percentage of water, making it worse. These people can't just move out of the neighborhood now. Plus, it was theirs to begin with.
Israel has simply outgrown its water (and to a much lesser extent, its land) resources and wants to obtain more using military force, if necessary. They have a get out of jail free card, an Ace-In-The-Hole by the name of the United States, who just happens to be their unconditional ally and the preeminient military and economic power in the world today. Even more importantly, there are no other supowers in the world today that can keep US and/or Israeli expansionism in check either. The only reason that Israel has not been invaded and disbanded by surrounding arab nations and disbanded as a jewish state is because of Israel's close ties the the US. The US wholly suports Israel in every action, even if it entails wrongful behavior towards the indigenous arabs.
A quickie primer for anyone not familiar with the arab-Israeli conflict in the middle east:The Balfour Declaration of 1917 stated British government intent to establish the land in Palestine for a nation of Israel. However, it wasn't really British land to give in the first place. That said, the declaration also stated that "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.." As we have seen throughout the decades, this requirement clearly had not been met. Anyway, this was pretty much a ploy by the British government to gain jewish support for their efforts in the Great War (WWI) by the way of soldier recruits from this demographic as well as much needed money to continue to prosecute the war against the Central Powers of Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire.
The actual state of Israel formed in late 1947 with the UN Partition Plan, which gave jews about 55% of the land in question and the arabs about 45%, which was actually ceded to the jews via this process. The jews accepted this plan while the arabs vehemently rejected it but to no avail. This was all done under UN authority after the British pulled out due to excessive violence between the Arabs and Israelis there in the region. It should be noted here that jews only owned approximately 30% of the land which is now called Israel, as Zionist groups (and a few jewish individuals) bought parcels from various arab land owners and the Ottomans during the 1920's and 30's. The jewish population there however, had swelled to between 700,000 - 1,000,000 on this tract of land. The official announcement of the state of Israel took place in 1948. At that point, immigration limits were lifted on Israel, as it became a self-governing body. As a result, the population dramatically increased over the following years. Approximately 750,000 arabs either fled or were driven out of the newly established jewish homeland of Israel, leaving behind their (former) land and homes of thousands of years. If that doesn't escalate the arab-Israeli tensions I don't know what does.
So, suddenly there is a heavy influx of people into a geographic area already taxed for natural resources that displaces the indigenous people of the region. Of course there will be an increase in tension levels and hard feelings as a predictable result. It is when these new people start to seriously tax these resources (land for housing/agriculture and water to support a quickly growing population) that a somewhat peaceful coexistence ends and a struggle for actual human survival in the region begins. Lebanon provides some of what Israel needs. Israel plans to take it by force, if necessary. We are seeing this happen today. As a matter of fact, ground troops are now invading Lebanon again and we are witnessing a new Israeli occupation of Lebanon and they don't plan on giving it up anytime soon either. The last Israeli occupation of Lebanon lasted for 18 years and only broke off because Israel needed their troops to put down the Palestinian intifadah in 2000. So, they are now back at it and plan to finish what was interrupted.
In a sense, the Israeli government (in the form of the VERY hawkish Likud Party) is very much like the punk-assed kid who no one can mess with because his dad (the US) is a top boss in the mafia. He thinks that gives him the right to act however he pleases without any repercussions, even if it means that he maliciously injures or kills someone - and he's right- seemingly no one can do shit about it. This is why the US is a terrorist target and our world leadership and credibility have deteriorated so greatly in the last decade. We fail to do what's right when called upon by the other nations of the world. Like it or not, through these actions and inactions, we condone such abusive behavior against the arab people in the middle east.
I would just like to point out that I am not jewish, nor an arab nor am I a muslim. I have no political or religious affiliations with any of these participants. I am a world citizen though, and as such, my life (as all of ours) is directly impacted by such events unfolding right now in the middle east. People may not think that these things actually concern them but they definitely do. We pay tax dollars which are given to Israel in the form of grants (never to be repaid), we pay higher prices at the gas pumps. We have become targets of terrorism due to our (US) unconditional support for Israel and our reluctance admonish her actions towards others. We even pay with our lives, as is the case in Iraq and Afghanistan, which were primarily fought by the US and Britain as a proxy war for Israeli security in the region, as well as the resources obtained by regime changes there. We as Americans, have a rather large bill coming due that we will have to pay for somehow. That bill is for the $1 trillion spent in Iraq and to a much lesser extent, Afghanistan. The war ISN'T paid for YET. The money to finance it is mostly borrowed from other nations establishing a credit to the US. They hold our debt. We and our children will have to pay this debt in the form of higher taxes and less federal government services for decades. That's money NOT spent here on the taxpayer and their families in developing a top rated education system, a fair and affordable national healthcare plan, tax breaks for the middle class and working poor, and is money coming directly out of our pockets that we will never see and don't benefit from in any tangible way. So, events happening a half of a world away are not insulated from us in any way. Often times, we chose not to see them for their consequences. Yet, it is our world and as we can clearly see, we are directly affected in many ways over here by what happens over there.
I apologize for the length of this post. :wacko:Comment
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