Are you this stupid?

[babyblues]

Not making fun here, just wondering how this fits into your theory. This is from the BBC website so it's not a story that our government could have created unless you think that England is in on it too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4783141.stm

[SpeedyReedy5]

Mine too hahahahahha

[Primal Instinct]

Not making fun here, just wondering how this fits into your theory. This is from the BBC website so it's not a story that our government could have created unless you think that England is in on it too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4783141.stm

Do I deny that there are no terrorist organizations out there that want to harm US citizens? Certainly not. That would be an ignorant statement. I think that in the recent terrorist plot thing going on in the news is that we need to wait a while to let the bravado settle down and the facts of the case fill in. Stuff like that will take time though. Remember the Florida "terrorist cell" that was busted by the FBI? They were a collection of misfits that only talked about terrorist plots but hadn't the means nor the wits to carry anything out. Furthermore, the only reason that they could have even been arrested was that there was an undercover FBI agent spurring these guys on. In other words, the agent was attempting to provoke such behavior from guys that were pretty much all hat and no cattle.


As for the 9/11 plot, why is it so hard to believe that there was a low level plot and that key officials in our (the US) government knew about it yet opened certain doorways to allow the air attacks to occur? Moreover, they (these key members of our government and defense department) ensured that the damage would be maximized and that US citizens would demand revenge by an invasion of whomever they were told was involved in the plot.


Fundamental Islamic terrorists certainly doesn't control civilian and military airspace nor can they arrange for almost the entire northeastern corridor of fighter-interceptors to take part in war games that morning over northwestern Canada, much less the frigging no-fly zone in Iraq. Those buildings didn't fall from fires or aircraft impacts, they had plenty of help. Go ask some professional blasters and structural engineers about their off-record opinions regarding the collapses of WTC I & II. It will open your eyes to a new realm of possibilities. Did fundamental Islamic terrorists (now presumeably dead) arrange for the structural steel from the WTC I, II & 7 to be carted away from a federal crime scene before almost any of it could be examined? What about fact that the US federal government via the White House and Pentagon had recently disbanded the Osama bin Laden task force without comment? You see, we can't catch him now because we need a bad guy out there to drive the terrorist fears and creatye a police state where none formerly existed. We are running out of bad guys.....must protect the golden goose.


Also, this crap (police state/authoritarian government movement) didn't start with Bush. It started farther back in Clinton's 1st term. Remember Waco, Ruby Ridge, Atlanta Olympics....all precursors to a revision of Constitutional statuates. The change happens gradually, not suddenly, although Dubya (under Cheney) took this movement mainstream with their "War on Terror" campaign. It was the "War on Drugs" under Reagan. Change creeps up so that people don't realize what they're losing until it accumulates and can't be rescinded.

[Bouncer]

Aliens!!

[Primal Instinct]

I drove through NJ last weekend for work and after seeing those drivers' antics there, I believe that some of them might be aliens. lol.

[babyblues]

As for the 9/11 plot, why is it so hard to believe that there was a low level plot and that key officials in our (the US) government knew about it yet opened certain doorways to allow the air attacks to occur? Moreover, they (these key members of our government and defense department) ensured that the damage would be maximized and that US citizens would demand revenge by an invasion of whomever they were told was involved in the plot.

Um...because the whole idea is ludicrous. I'm not insulting your intelligence and someday I might be proven wrong, but your explanation of events all too conveniently fits right into your theory above. To a degree, you're not piecing the facts together to form your theory, you're making the facts fit into the theory that you've already chosen to buy into. You're on a witch hunt, therefore you need a witch to hunt. So, you've made a witch out of neoconservatives claiming that they've been trying to effect this change over time.

Oh, and to those who think that he's provided "documentation".....read the "documentation" and decide for yourself whether it actually proves his theory. I could find a bunch of stuff online and claim that it supports my point of view but it's not necessarily "documentation". How much of what he has to say is his opinion about what he's read in the news and such? How do we know that what he's stating as fact isn't just the opinion of others who are convinced there's a conspiracy just as he is? Just food for thought.

[Primal Instinct]

Such "self-sacrificing" behavior for the greater good (so to speak) has been evidenced before in this administration. Would you like a perfect example? Investigate why the White House changed the EPA air safety report on the breathing air at and near Ground Zero. Entire warning statements were ommitted and data fabricated. Why did this happen? Why were we told that the breathing air there in lower Manhattan was safe? It was so that Wall Street would reopen as soon as possible. Gotta take care of the party base and their own portfolios, I guess. You know, for the "greater good", right? Guess what? There are thousands of people dying right now as a result of this sacrifice for the greater good, babyblues. Cancer, lung disease, mercury poisoning, etc. The air WASN'T safe and your government knew it and intentionally covered it up knowing the consequences. We're talking about PH levels at 10-12 here! That is bretahing in acid, my friend. Fucking acidic air...but hell, we're just a bunch of mere peasants, right? As long as the machine keeps running, whatever the cost. So, in the coming years, more people will die from breathing the heavy metals and sulfides in the air in the lower Manhattan region than were actually killed in the 9/11 attacks themself. All in the name of a greater good. Why hasn't there been criminal charges filed? Simple, the people that perpetrated such a criminal action (premeditated homicide) are the same people that control the mechanism to investigate such crimes. Does a cop write himself a speeding ticket? Think about those things when you suggest that a government such as ours would not sacrifice its own citizens in the pursuit of a political agenda.



Research the facts behind Operation Northwoods to invalidate your own claims, babyblues. To think that people in our own government who would do harm to our citizens is somehow "ludicrous" is a seriously uninformed statement. A former Chairmain of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (Lemnitzer) formally proposed the EXACT SAME TYPE OF VIOLENCE against US citizens on domestic soil as well as to sacrifice US military personnel in an effort to garner US and world support for a US invasion of Cuba in the 1960's. This had been declassified and resides in the National Archives. The fact that this person had attained such a crucial and highly sensitive position in our nation's government dramatically refutes your opinion. If Cheney and his cadre were in power back then we would have certainly invaded Cuba after domestic "terrorist" attacks in Miami, D.C. and Chicago plus attacks on our own military at our base in Guantanemo Bay, Cuba. So, let's opine for the moment and consider that since such behavior of a high ranking government official had already taken place, one cannot honestly dismiss such a thing from ever taking place (again).


Here's a serious question for you: Do YOU trust Dick Cheney and his close-knit group of PNACers? Don't fall victim to disillusionment. Bush DOES NOT run this government. He is merely the figurehead, a mouthpiece for a more insidious group of authoritarians. He is a proverbial pig in the silk hat and was chosen to run for president precisely because he was a slacker and a glory seeker. He certainly was not an involved figure in our government, as evidenced by his four month long vacation not long after his appointment to office. A guy like McCain or Gore would NEVER have allowed a group of neocons like Bush's handlers to reattain such prominent positions in our federal government again.


Were you REALLY suprised that the US would make a case for war to invade Iraq? I wasn't and I called this ahead of time in the days immediately following Bush's selection to the Oval office via the US Supreme Court decision, which usurped US voters' rights. People laughed at me back then. They stopped laughing only 2 years later when the Bush Administration started making the case for a US invasion of Iraq. By January 2003, all of the critical ducks were placed in a row and the only thing slowing down an invasion was the logistics of materiel to a staging area in Kuwait. The invasion had to start relatively soon afterward because of the extremely high temperatures in the region would make an invasion very difficult, especially if troops were going to wear chemical weapons suits. The end of March would be the cutoff date, so March 18th fit into the design perfectly. Bush-Cheney were already going in regardless of the outcome of the UN presentation by Colin Powell. That presentation was a farce anyhow. Anytime that someone makes a case for war and uses artists' renditions of what the "enemy" has for weapons systems one should take pause. During the Cuban missile crisis, John Cabot Lodge made a clear, concise case for possible US military action towards Cuba by providing photographic evidence of nuclear missiles aimed at the US to substantiate such claims. That's the way it SHOULD be - substantiuated claims and evidence to back them up - but the Bush Administration didn't have any proof, just heresay. They didn't truly care anyhow, as it was already decided that we were going to invade Iraq. Only the appearance of using the proper channels mattered because it was simply a show for US public consumption. Hence, the drawings and not photographs or any other reliable testimony. We went to war based upon fear mongering and deceitful testimony and lies by those who were supposed to work for our best interests. They failed to do that and instead, used their positions of power and authoritty to pursue their own agendas, which BTW, were already well documented and published ONLINE over 3 years earlier on the PNAC website. Without 9/11, none of this policy could be enacted because we (US citizens) would never allow such an unsubstantiated and unprovoked invasion to occur. We had to be shocked and frightened by middle eastern terrorists first in order to justify a middle eastern invasion. 9/11 perpetrated by terrorists from say, Russia or South America simply wouldn't allow for the predetermined march to war in the middle east because who could then make such a connection and therefore how could an invasion of some other reason possibly be sold to the public? Think on a higher level. This stuff isn't far flung conspiracy theories. It is simple dedctive reasoning and critical thinking much the same as in any criminal investigation on a domestic level. The most difficult aspect of accquiring or accepting the truth in these matters is that many people refuse to even entertain such possibilities because it severely compromises their personal belief system. It is the same type of thing when discussing religion or creationism vs natural evolution for that matter. People like to believe that there is some benevolent entity always looking out for their safety and best interests (whether it's their government or God) but they often cannot accept the possibility that just maybe, they are either alone in this world or perhaps the entity that they thought would take care of them actually has little regard for them and may even sacrifice such believers.


I do not just fling unsubstantiated theories out there. I do my homework very carefully and have a pretty decent track record on such types of things. You can choose to disagree all you like but that doesn't negate the possibility of treasonous actions against our own citizens in order to pursue an ideological political agenda. The fact of the matter is that almost 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11 and our government is covering up and destroying critical forensic evidence and fabricating a cover story to promote an agenda. The agenda is to remake the middle east into a US client state and militarily defeat anyone who has any chance at challenging US world domination. This policy never works and eventually the opressors fall unto their own sword. Reference the roman empire, the Visigoths, the British Empire, the Ottomans and other great dynasties that could not keep their vast kingdoms due to overexpansion and the oppression of the people of the territories that they occupied.

[babyblues]

I disagree with your conclusion, but I'm not an idiot. I don't agree with what you claim is your evidence, but I'm not stupid. I actually have researched most of what you've presented as fact and I've come to the conclusion that it's just your opinion. Everything you just posted is based on theory...your theory. Theory isn't reality. I prefer to rely on logic, reason and common sense. Some things that you seriously seem to lack.

You present your opinion in a very convincing manner and you're obviously a very intelligent person. And I don't doubt when you say that you do your homework. But in my opinion, your conclusion isn't very sound. My evidence is fucking common sense. I have a pretty good track record myself with being able to tell the difference between a reasonable, logical statement and one that is full of opinion and hasty conclusions. Don't assume you're the most informed person in this discussion. My information may be different than yours and my methods may be different but I'm far from wet behind the ears. Say what you will, post another 15 page diatribe full of your opinion and call it fact if you want. I can respect the fact that you have your opinion and that it's different than mine, but when you start telling me that I'm uninformed because I don't share your opinion my respect goes right down to zero. Enjoy your witch hunt.

[blm]

I disagree with your conclusion, but I'm not an idiot. I don't agree with what you claim is your evidence, but I'm not stupid. I actually have researched most of what you've presented as fact and I've come to the conclusion that it's just your opinion. Everything you just posted is based on theory...your theory. Theory isn't reality. I prefer to rely on logic, reason and common sense. Some things that you seriously seem to lack.

You present your opinion in a very convincing manner and you're obviously a very intelligent person. And I don't doubt when you say that you do your homework. But in my opinion, your conclusion isn't very sound. My evidence is fucking common sense. I have a pretty good track record myself with being able to tell the difference between a reasonable, logical statement and one that is full of opinion and hasty conclusions. Don't assume you're the most informed person in this discussion. My information may be different than yours and my methods may be different but I'm far from wet behind the ears. Say what you will, post another 15 page diatribe full of your opinion and call it fact if you want. I can respect the fact that you have your opinion and that it's different than mine, but when you start telling me that I'm uninformed because I don't share your opinion my respect goes right down to zero. Enjoy your witch hunt.

I stepped away from this argument because I have a hard time not letting things get personal so instead of arguing about something that 2 people strongly believe in and ending up saying things that are out of line...I just step away. But everytime I read one of your posts I want to go on a rant because you come off as so narrow minded, self righteous and arrogant. You claim everything that anyone posts in this thread that differs from your 'opinion' is false and constructed to serve ones own theory, but you have yet to post anything to validate your almighty truth. Thats right you don't have to because you are the only reasonable and logical man partaking in this discussion and your opinion is gospel.

[hlcn8]

babyblues, my comment regarding documentation had nothing to do w/ saying the links provided were fact and peer-reviewed, just that they provided more substance than the other sides of the argument were providing. If you've done your research as well go ahead and post some of it, i'd love to read it. like i said before I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle and so i'm not asking you to post it so I can refute it, i'd just like to see what else is out there and what other information there is so that there's a decent debate on the subject, rather than one side showing information and another equating the subject to hollywood movie plots.

[Primal Instinct]

I can respect the fact that you have your opinion and that it's different than mine, but when you start telling me that I'm uninformed because I don't share your opinion my respect goes right down to zero. Enjoy your witch hunt.

Babyblues,

I will not attempt to insult you as you have done to me. Disagree with me and degrade me all you like but I have provided a direct refutation (via Operation Northwoods) of your statement that my claim that our government (or at least people in key positions) can see it as a fair trade off to sacrifice US military personnel and everyday citizens' lives in what they feel is a "greater good" whether such an agenda is actually "good" for us or not. It is not "ludicrous" as you put it in light of such a discovery. You have responded by shooting the messenger and ignoring the message. I am curious as to your opinion of Operation Northwoods and the carefully outlined pretexts to create a justification for an offensive US military war action. As I've previously stated, you cannot deny that such actions have not been seriously presented and reviewed before. Insult me if you feel that it's warranted but at least address the issue at hand and not avoid an uncomfortable reality.


I invite everyone hear to read the Joint Chiefs of Staff memo and make up their own minds about whether our own government would be willing to sacrifice us in order to pursue a military and political agenda. See for yourselves if pretexts outlined there do not apply to the Bush Administration's current Iraq invasion/nationbuilding and their "War on Terror." Pay particularly close attention to where the memo calls shooting down a chartered aircraft full of US college students over US-Cuban airspace, sinking boatloads of Cuban refugees and claiming that the Cuban government did it, hijacking attempts of US civil aircraft, harrassing US civil aircraft using a USAF f-86 painted as a Russian Mig, attacking our own base at Gitmo including bombings and mortar fire claiming that it was Cubans, sabotage US aircraft at Gitmo, blow up a US warship in Havana Bay (Remember the Maine) remember the USS Cole anyone?, exploding plastic explosives on US soil, as well as other domestic and foreign terrorist staged events by our government on innocent US and Cuban civilians and US military personnel. Read it yourself and make your own determination about whether such activities enacted recently could be deemed "ludicrous", as babyblues states so matter of factly. This is where logic and reasoning definitely applies to today's situation and when considering the events of 9/11. Who really benefits from such a crime?


Operation Northwoods



Lastly, if Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda are so irrefutably guilty of the 9/11 attacks, where is the proof? Babyblues has offered nothing yet expects to be taken for his word and takes this seemingly as a personal affront. What is wrong with critical analysis? Even the FBI does not list OBL or Al Qaeda in their Ten Most Wanted Fugitives as suspects in the 9/11 attacks. Why not, if there is no doubt that they were involved? Where is the proof? Simple fact- there is none. This whole thing is just an updated version of Operation Northwoods except instead of Cuba, the new target is middle eastern fundamental Islamists and a despot leader of a nation on the verge of a failed state aka Iraq. People bought this bill of goods because they didn't know any better and trusted their government, hence we are in Afghanistan and Iraq trying toi remake the middle east into a US client state.


Thomas Jefferson himself warned against trusting your own government too much. It is our patriotic duty to question all government actions and demand transparency. It is what we must do to ensure that our republic lives on as it was originally designed. We are always in danger of losing this wonderful form of government when we rely on its officials to police themselves and ignore our patriotic duty to ourselves and our children.



* Sorry that this post wasn't a full 15 pages, as babyblues expected. I guess that we'll all just have to make due...

[Shibby]

I am finding this very interesting to read different views. Babyblues, I just would like for you to show more credits though. Something along the lines of "This person/orginization did a study on the Twin Towers collapsing and found nothing out of the ordinary". I have heard some creditable people have study it and came to those conclusions. But I don't know who or how I would find out who.

[Shibby]

Even the FBI does not list OBL or Al Qaeda in their Ten Most Wanted Fugitives as suspects in the 9/11 attacks.

I'm confused by this sentence. Is there a typo, because OBL is in the top ten.

[Primal Instinct]

I'm confused by this sentence. Is there a typo, because OBL is in the top ten.

No problem, Shibby. You see, OBL IS wanted with regards to terrorism but NOT in connection with the 9/11 attacks.

Quote from the FBI Most Wanted Poster for OBL:
"USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD."


Nowhere does any of this mention the 9/11 attacks. You'd think that if what the Bush Administration says is true that there would actually be some mention of this on the FBI website, right? But there isn't. Why not? I'll tell you, there is no actual proof tying Osama bin Laden or Al Qaeda to the attacks. If there really was some hard evidence don't you think that the FBI would have added this into his profile? I mean, 9/11 was THE largest and deadliest attack of US (and other nations' citizens) on domestic soil but without any concrete evidence there is no justification for inclusion on his most wanted profile. Actual proof would only make a case against Islamic fundamentalist terrorism that much stronger, correct? Then ask yourself why isn't 9/11 even mentioned under OBL's profile? Hell, go one better....try to find hard evidence that Al Qaeda did the attacks. Keep in mind that several of the hijacker identities were false and the actual people are alive and living their lives out in middle eastern nations as we speak. So then, who were these so called Al Qaeda operatives really? Also, ask why some of them could live with an active FBI informant for more than a year and the FBI wouldn't even have a clue as to who they were or what they were planning? No way. Also, why would hijackers live on US military bases? Doesn't that seem quite odd, especially if one didn't want to draw attention to themselves? Remember how several Lee Harvey Oswalds started popping up and making public scenes or visiting foreign embassies just months prior to the Kennedy assassination? This whole thing has a decidely black ops signature. Shit, Operation Northwoods from the 60's even describes how to steal an aircraft and pass it off as destroyed while renumbering the tail and using it for other purposes. Too many coincidences and too much evidence suppression leads one to conclude that 19 misfits couldn't have pulled this attack off. They simply didn't have the qualifications necessary nor could they have manipulated US air defenses, forensic evidence collection procedures, stole video footage from various I-95 traffic cams, gas station and hotel footage pointed directly at the Pentagon during the alleged Flt 77 impact, etc., etc...


We are constantly being told what to think and everyday we receive intentionally misleading information in order to convince us to support a government promoted scenario that we cannot verify. Simply put, we are conditioned to think and believe lies and half-truths by a relentless propaganda war5 from the White House and the mainstream media on a daily basis. How many actually people thought that Saddam Hussein was tied into the 9/11 attacks when polled in the US? A shitload. That is because the Bush Administration talking heads would mention 9/11 and Saddam in the same breath several times a day for months and months on end. Cheney was the worst offender using this mild brainwashing tactic. It was the doorway to the US invasion of Iraq. What's worse is that the supposedly independent and free media promoted such shit because that's what they do to repay the Bush Administration for quite a sizeable increase in media market ownership percentages via Colin Powell's son, Michael who was the Chairman at the FCC. It's the old you-scratch-my-back-and-I'll-scratch-yours routine.


OBL certainly is on the most wanted list by the FBI, indeed. But not for the 9/11 attacks, my friend.

[babyblues]

I stepped away from this argument because I have a hard time not letting things get personal so instead of arguing about something that 2 people strongly believe in and ending up saying things that are out of line...I just step away. But everytime I read one of your posts I want to go on a rant because you come off as so narrow minded, self righteous and arrogant. You claim everything that anyone posts in this thread that differs from your 'opinion' is false and constructed to serve ones own theory, but you have yet to post anything to validate your almighty truth. Thats right you don't have to because you are the only reasonable and logical man partaking in this discussion and your opinion is gospel.

Yeah, thanks for that. And this doesn't come off as arrogant?

I'm reading some research right now that is actually pretty compelling. I'm not ready to say I believe that it was staged by our government, but I'm leaning toward believing that certain individuals knew about the plot, whoever came up with and implemented it, and profited from it.


P.S. Upon further research and subsequent findings, I no longer believe there was foreknowledge.