Who doesn't believe in religion?

[goliath]

The way you talk about it just makes so much sense to me. There is a guy at work that always discusses his side (christian) with me. Lately though he has kind of kept quite. The last couple questions I asked either made him give up or he found himself asking inner questions he didn't like. And by didn't like I mean if he really considered it, it would throw his world into unstoppable spin.

that's a tough fact about bringing religion into serious debate. with regard to god, the fact is that neither the theistic side, nor the atheist side can be proven. it is an argument which cannot be won by either side because of it's intangibility. however, the christian concept of god, as defined by christians, this concept can be demonstratively disproved through logic - but only the christian definition of god and not the god itself.

unfortunately, a lot of people need something to believe in so that they may feel whole or that there is meaning to their existence. personally, i love life and don't feel the need to believe in anything supernatural in order to feel good about myself, those i love, or my life in general. to me, life is beautiful - regardless of its origin. but not everyone feels the same and so i generally leave this topic alone. when i can. unfortunately for me, i also have a big mouth.

read my signature...i really believe it to be true. i would personally prefer to live by what i feel is true, just, and right than live my short existence under a delusional shadow.

[NewbieChris]

actually, i have. my parents are divorced but i lived with my dad for several years and he is a baptist. i went to church every sunday, and often wednesday as well. i was falling for it - but at 13/14 years old, i started noticing that things didn't add up...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the whole thing is a farce. and yes, it is that simple...from it's inception, religion has been used as a means of control. 'religion is the opiate of the poor'. it is a device by which the have's are able to control the have-not's. fret not for your suffering here on earth for you will be rewarded handsomely in the kingdom of heaven.

give me a break. people who claim to speak to god are nuts. depending on what the voices say, we either lock them up or label them as profits and men of god...they're all the same brand of crazy if you ask me.

You are completely wrong. The Book was written for and by the 'have-nots'. It was because of those who 'have' that it was written. Read the old testament. It may have once, or still, been used as you seem to think, but that was not the reason for its creation. It is a product of society, and actually, a product that teaches us the history of our society.

Organized religion, in itself is nothing more than a group of people convening with a common belief system. Such as a town hall meeting, etc. Its all an example of society and societies of the past. Its relevance today may be different, but labeling over 98% of the world as sheep's is very closed minded. Like I said, you aren't being open minded about it. Religion, in and of itself, is has no effect on society. Society gives it that ability.

I speak to God. I pray at night. That doesn't mean he responds. Does that make me crazy? Another thing that bothers me with your position, is that you think logically you think a deity of some sort doesn't exist. Hostile or not...and God is both depending on which Bible you subscribe to, because they all have their routes in the same place...is quite possible when you take a step back and think. How little science has taught us about our surroundings is amazing. The complexity of evolution, and the universe. Dark matter. They all lead to the question of how. If we can create life in a vacuum tube...who is to say we are not the experiment? Its all very philosophical.

The idea that those 55 people who died in the south did something to offend God is stupid to me. A true believer thinks He may have a greater meaning for those people. The actions of a God are incomprehensible to you and I. Thats the point. I'm not trying to convert you and I certainly haven't given you my full belief system, but I'm just trying to show you that your opinion is NOT unbiased. You are most likely reading this and wanting to hit something or scream because you think it is so illogical.

[NewbieChris]

that's a tough fact about bringing religion into serious debate. with regard to god, the fact is that neither the theistic side, nor the atheist side can be proven. it is an argument which cannot be won by either side because of it's intangibility. however, the christian concept of god, as defined by christians, this concept can be demonstratively disproved through logic - but only the christian definition of god and not the god itself.

Dark Matter is an illogical scientific truth...

[goliath]

You are completely wrong. The Book was written for and by the 'have-nots'. It was because of those who 'have' that it was written. Read the old testament. It may have once, or still, been used as you seem to think, but that was not the reason for its creation. It is a product of society, and actually, a product that teaches us the history of our society.

Organized religion, in itself is nothing more than a group of people convening with a common belief system. Such as a town hall meeting, etc. Its all an example of society and societies of the past. Its relevance today may be different, but labeling over 98% of the world as sheep's is very closed minded. Like I said, you aren't being open minded about it. Religion, in and of itself, is has no effect on society. Society gives it that ability.

I speak to God. I pray at night. That doesn't mean he responds. Does that make me crazy? Another thing that bothers me with your position, is that you think logically you think a deity of some sort doesn't exist. Hostile or not...and God is both depending on which Bible you subscribe to, because they all have their routes in the same place...is quite possible when you take a step back and think. How little science has taught us about our surroundings is amazing. The complexity of evolution, and the universe. Dark matter. They all lead to the question of how. If we can create life in a vacuum tube...who is to say we are not the experiment? Its all very philosophical.

The idea that those 55 people who died in the south did something to offend God is stupid to me. A true believer thinks He may have a greater meaning for those people. The actions of a God are incomprehensible to you and I. Thats the point. I'm not trying to convert you and I certainly haven't given you my full belief system, but I'm just trying to show you that your opinion is NOT unbiased. You are most likely reading this and wanting to hit something or scream because you think it is so illogical.

actually - when the stories within the bible were compiled at the council of nicaea, the roman empire was crumbling. largely due to the fact that people were becoming sickened by the decadent roman lifestyle. christianity was growing as a movement and emperor constantine called the council as a last ditch effort to unify his crumbling society. rome survived, but the empire did not due to a host of other circumstances. his goal was to unify rome under a monothiestic umbrella and leave the gods* behind - their existence really made less sense than the existence of a single god. but anyway - my point is simply that the bible was compiled due to political necessity and not religious unification.

and no, i don't think you're crazy at all. if he ever answers you....seek help.

and no, your response doesn't upset me in the slightest, why would it? i think it's a little strange that you feel religion offers a more solid explanation of our surroundings than science. don't you find it strange that religious texts are full of miracles, yet, since the dawning of the age of reason, there hasn't been a single miracle performed, demonstrated, or observed?

if i told you that i saw a pig fly, would you believe me?

[goliath]

just to add...

your beliefs are natural and to be expected. humans inherently view things in terms of beginning and end. it's the way everything - absolutely everything around us operates. we're born, we die, buildings are built only to crumble...so naturally we see things in those terms. but it does not necessarily follow that this is the way things are. things could have always just been. science likes the 'big bang' - but this is just as much a leap of faith as god. but for all we know, the universe could have always just been...nature is cyclical, so it seams reasonable that the universe could be cyclical as well. the evidence for the big bang is that we know the universe is expanding using light as the measure. but what if that is only a tiny fraction of the bigger picture? the universe expands over billions and billions of years, only to eventually contract in on itself again...and the cycle continues.

i'm not saying that this idea is the correct answer - it is VERY unlikely that our species will ever survive long enough to know the answer. but why fret over it? we are here now...so enjoy it. if believing in god makes you feel comfortable in your own skin, then god bless you, bro!

[goliath]

Dark Matter is an illogical scientific truth...

i wrote a philosophy paper a long time ago using omega number theory as a possible proof to the existence of god. omega numbers are a mathematical anomaly. mathematics is a science which would seem to be absolutely bound by logic and reason (in its basic form anyway). omega numbers are completely illogical, yet they exist. omega and super omega numbers are the inconvenient truth - the silver bullet for physicists searching for a unified theory. mathematicians (math being generally regarded as the only pure science) believe that everything around us has a mathematical representation. chemical equations, gravity, energy, everything....but omega theory blows all of that out of the water. but i'm getting tired. my point is simply that yes, religion if full of circular reasoning, fallacious logic, and holes in general...but so is science. what we know about the physical world barely scrapes the surface of the truth. however - science is the process by which a conclusion is reached and not the thing itself. if ones hypothesis is demonstrated to be untrue, the scientist accepts the results of his experiment and forms another. the theist on the other hand refuses to accept that his hypothesis is wrong and searches for reasons as to why the experiment is flawed...searches desperately to find a way to disprove the experiment (be it verbal or otherwise) rather than to accept that his hypothesis is flawed.

this is why i roll my eyes every time i see a 'christian science' sign or banner - christian science is an oxymoron. a thiest cannot be a scientist so long as his experiments are conducted under the watchful eye of god and his or her system of belief.

[Shibby]

Like I said, you aren't being open minded about it. Religion, in and of itself, is has no effect on society. Society gives it that ability.

I never understood this statement being directed towards those of us who once had religion in our life and now don't. If anything we are more open minded to see and accept something outside the box. A guy at work has told me that if I read the bible I would see things differently. I said I have read parts. He tells me I need to read the whole thing and if I did it would change my life. Obviously there is something inherently unbelievable about the book if it takes that much saturation to start believing it. If someone shows me any one science experiment one time, I believe in all the science behind it. I can do, you can do it. So why is that so hard to accept within religion? Who's not being open minded?

[mindstar]

if you think of religion in memetic terms, it most certainly has an effect on society.

[goliath]

one more thing, then i'm off to bed.

newbiechris:
i just want to point out that you traveled the exact same pattern of debate as every intelligent person i debate this topic with. since my objective is not to corner you and cause you to question your own beliefs - i won't press the issue. but notice that you never tried to disprove the reasoning that i use to arrive at my conclusion. instead, you assume that i view science as an absolute and begin to poke holes in an argument which i never made.

[Gator_Mclusky]

I believe. I know theres a God.
If yall non-believers have internet....Ill send yall a message as to what its like in the Promised land!!!!!!

gator:P

[Bouncer]

question for goliath and shibby. i agree with you guys when it comes to religion. one thing that bothers me though is this. its kind if a scary and depressing thought to think that we will never see family members, friends, animals etc.. that have passed away. i think that is a big part of why people adopt things like religion. they cant deal with the pain or thought that we are no more important in this world then a fly and that when we die that is it. the end.

while i believe in science over religion i would also like to believe that i will see past family and friends again. the problem is that doesn't make any kind of sense to me and its a scary thought.

just wondering what your thoughts on that are.

[goliath]

question for goliath and shibby. i agree with you guys when it comes to religion. one thing that bothers me though is this. its kind if a scary and depressing thought to think that we will never see family members, friends, animals etc.. that have passed away. i think that is a big part of why people adopt things like religion. they cant deal with the pain or thought that we are no more important in this world then a fly and that when we die that is it. the end.

while i believe in science over religion i would also like to believe that i will see past family and friends again. the problem is that doesn't make any kind of sense to me and its a scary thought.

just wondering what your thoughts on that are.

what about it doesn't make sense? it seems to make a lot more sense to me than when we die, some intangible portion of our being flies up to a magical place to live in eternal bliss.
it would be very comforting to know that we will see our loved ones again, but it is a fairy tail. we have incredibly complex minds, but biological complexity does not necessitate the existence of a 'soul'.

[Bouncer]

what about it doesn't make sense? it seems to make a lot more sense to me than when we die, some intangible portion of our being flies up to a magical place to live in eternal bliss.
it would be very comforting to know that we will see our loved ones again, but it is a fairy tail. we have incredibly complex minds, but biological complexity does not necessitate the existence of a 'soul'.

i am saying that it is a comforting thought to believe that we will see family and friends again BUT that idea makes no sense to me. meaning, the thought of our souls flying up to the clouds and prancing around makes no sense.

[alwaysgrowing]

here is my issue with many religions. Many religions believe that this life, and how you live it, will decide what happens when this life expires.

So basically, the whole point of life is to audition for a part in a future play, that you don't even know what it is. That bothers me.

Live for today. The past is lost forever, and the future you may never see. Focus on what you have, focus on now.

That is just my humble opinion

[goliath]

i am saying that it is a comforting thought to believe that we will see family and friends again BUT that idea makes no sense to me. meaning, the thought of our souls flying up to the clouds and prancing around makes no sense.

i agree. it's a fairy tail - unfortunately.