Gas May Soon Cost $7 and $10 a gallon...

[hitmansb]

Do you realize what it would take to rebuild the country to make things in walking or biking distance? How about starting a mass transit system that reaches beyond any major city? Because Europe has always had high gas prices they didn't necessarily adapt, they built their cities in conjunction to keep them running. It's either get public transportation set up to support smaller areas than they are normally set up or tear down the existing structure and rebuild to support homes.

I agree wholeheartedly Shibby. I think some here aren't grasping the scope of a project that would see every major US city build mass-transit to link it to the suburbs, while also re-zoning and rebuilding cities to encourage a reversal of urban sprawl/urban blight that occured over time.

It can be done, but it sure as hell can't be done within a year or two years. You think landowners are going to jump on board and sell their homes to make way for a new rail line? There'd be land acquisition fights that would be tied up in court for years, before you could even break ground on the mass transit system.

Think 5 years at a minimum to get solid commuter rail systems linking cities to their suburbs.

[Bouncer]

the brutal truth is that money drives change. not people sitting there and saying, "i need to change." "the people" really don't need to do a damn thing. the very fact that we cant afford gas anymore will drive the change. there is a whole new type of industry being built on the very foundation of high gas prices. "the green movement" is not because people care, its not because we have good hearts, it is because we simply cant sustain the way we were living.

[Shibby]

Also, just to see how suburbs have been built over the last 10 years and the design being built around cars... You will notice it's hard to find a side walk that stretches more than 5 blocks.

[toolwtf]

Also, just to see how suburbs have been built over the last 10 years and the design being built around cars... You will notice it's hard to find a side walk that stretches more than 5 blocks.

If gas gets high enough and stays constant, the you'll see the end of the suburbs over time. People will move into or very close to the city. We have suburbs that are 60 miles outside of the city right now because it was feasable at the time. Like Bouncer said, the money drove that, people could afford a 60 mile commute. Now they can't so things will change. Will it happen overnight? Hell no. I never claimed that. But it will happen. Adaptation happens - but something has to drive it.

[toolwtf]

Yes, but MY argument is that it's VERY hard to "adapt" when it is "all of a sudden" - we didn't get to gradually feel this pain.

Well. Gas has been around $3 for at least a year now - that's pretty high. The sad thing is... and this is something we all need to realize is that americans are so stretched and live paycheck to paycheck to the point that gas increasing by ONE dollar per gallon is enough to put us over the edge, put us in the poor house..... That is what's really sad. We should all have better savings and better money management so that when something like this happens "all of a sudden" as you say, then we can weather the storm.

FB, why didn't you respond to my thread up above with the action items you could do? Not interested in doing any of those things?

[Shibby]

If gas gets high enough and stays constant, the you'll see the end of the suburbs over time. People will move into or very close to the city. We have suburbs that are 60 miles outside of the city right now because it was feasable at the time. Like Bouncer said, the money drove that, people could afford a 60 mile commute. Now they can't so things will change. Will it happen overnight? Hell no. I never claimed that. But it will happen. Adaptation happens - but something has to drive it.

Where are those homes going to be built for the mass of people to live closer to the city? Most cities use to have homes and people moved out after corporations bought the land to build more business's. Do you think people will be able to re-buy the land and build new homes? This "adapting" to high gas prices is what will destroy this country. That's why everyone is scrambling to do like what Bouncer said with cars. The idea of moving closer to the cities and jobs just isn't feasible. People will need homes long before business will shut down and rebuilding of homes can begin.

[Scrumhalf]

the brutal truth is that money drives change. not people sitting there and saying, "i need to change." "the people" really don't need to do a damn thing. the very fact that we cant afford gas anymore will drive the change. there is a whole new type of industry being built on the very foundation of high gas prices. "the green movement" is not because people care, its not because we have good hearts, it is because we simply cant sustain the way we were living.

Very astute observation, B! For every business or activity that folds due to the current (and probably permanent) situation of high gas prices, there is another that will prosper. This is where government can play a useful role - funding and subsidizing the industries that are going to succeed in this new environment.

Instead of blowing things up in Iraq, I would like the government to spend the money providing incentives for say, solar power generation in the Southwest where they have almost perpetual sunshine, electric and hydrogen powered automobiles, tax incentives for higher-density housing near city cores, rapid transit systems in all major cities, etc.

[Bouncer]

Instead of blowing things up in Iraq, I would like the government to spend the money providing incentives for say, solar power generation in the Southwest where they have almost perpetual sunshine, electric and hydrogen powered automobiles, tax incentives for higher-density housing near city cores, rapid transit systems in all major cities, etc.

i am right there with ya brother.

something else about the war. don't quote me on this but i am pretty sure i read somewhere that the war uses more fuel per day than all car traffic in America. :(

[Scrumhalf]

Where are those homes going to be built for the mass of people to live closer to the city? Most cities use to have homes and people moved out after corporations bought the land to build more business's. Do you think people will be able to re-buy the land and build new homes? This "adapting" to high gas prices is what will destroy this country. That's why everyone is scrambling to do like what Bouncer said with cars. The idea of moving closer to the cities and jobs just isn't feasible. People will need homes long before business will shut down and rebuilding of homes can begin.

Shib, you are painting the most dire of scenarios, i.e. nobody is going to consume any oil any more. I agree that scenario would imply the end of civilization as we know it.

But don't talk about going cold turkey here.... how about just cutting your energy use by 10%? How about 20-25%?

For example, how many people on this board have:

a. Walked or ridden a bicycle to the grocery store if it is just a mile or two away instead of automatically jumping into an automobile?

b. Carefully planned all your weekly shopping so that you make 1 trip instead of 3?

b. Taken a bus or train to work even part way, i.e. driven up to a nearby park-n-ride and taken public transportation the rest of the way?

c. Used a clothesline to dry your clothes instead of running the dryer? Most people on this board appear to live in parts of the country that should be sunny (i..e not the PNW like me) and as long as you have a backyard or deck, this should be pretty easy to do.

My point is that shaving 10, 20% of your energy consumption is not that hard to do. It takes some commitment of time and effort but believe me, it will make a *huge* difference if everyone in America drops their energy consumption by 10%....

[Shibby]

I'm not sure if you read it right or if what I was trying to say came across wrong. I have been talking about how we have made are lives to commute with our cars, because of that there is no money for the city to see a need for public transportation on a large scale. People can't miss a day of work here and there consistently and expect to keep their jobs. When I talk about missing days, I mean it because people can't afford the gas to go to work everyday. There will come a point where their job doesn't make sense to drive too after accounting for gas costs. So what's next... Get a job closer to home? Will that job make enough money to sustain the current life...? Move closer to the city to keep the job they have? Will the area be as nice, safe, affordable for the size of the family?... Sure energy conservation can help prolong things while a solution is figured out, but will it buy "you" enough time? Most Americans life is timed and structured around having multiple cars, if you have a family both parents work.

Just to hit on some of the points you made as to how it works into the majority of lives:

a. Walked or ridden a bicycle to the grocery store if it is just a mile or two away instead of automatically jumping into an automobile?

a) Time being the factor to do it consistently. Are lives are so busy that walking or riding might take an extra half hour out of the short days we have. Add that to weather factors and it can become very difficult and much more stressful. Most Americans need to find more ways to de-stress.

Carefully planned all your weekly shopping so that you make 1 trip instead of 3?

b) I think most people do this to the best of their abilities but things always come up. Although I agree their are plenty of people that can do a lot better at this.

Used a clothesline to dry your clothes instead of running the dryer? Most people on this board appear to live in parts of the country that should be sunny (i..e not the PNW like me) and as long as you have a backyard or deck, this should be pretty easy to do.

c) Assuming you have time to be at home while you dry them, because most people don't want to put up with stupid people stealing stuff or just messing with it. Taking the clothes out of the wash and clipping each piece to the line... More time needed. The clothes usually are more stiff and need ironing... Yep more time needed.


I don't want you to think I don't understand what you are saying and that I don't agree, but the reality of it is the lives that most live are not set up to live that way or make the changes needed.

[Scrumhalf]

Well Shib, much as in the case of weight loss or getting into shape, it requires a lifestyle change. Not a huge adjustment, but a commitment nonetheless.

If it is going to take a half hour more a day to commute half of the way to work, or to walk to the grocery store, or maybe do your laundry on your day off so that you can hang it out instead of using the dryer, then that's the commitment one has to make.

Otherwise, aren't we doing nothing more than bitching and complaining, much like the people who can't understand why they are 50 pounds overweight and obese when their eating habits and basic lifestyle are badly screwed up?

[Bouncer]

as you will know though scrum, just like your reference to getting in shape, most people just are not going to do it.

like i said, the general public isn't really going to have to change all that much. the business catering to that public will..

[Shibby]

Ditto what Bouncer says. We can do things to help extend the current status of our lives, but most won't, so because of those that don't we all will suffer.

[Nekrawulf]

You aren't thinking in depth enough about it. The reason Europe is that way is because they have always had high gas prices so they adapted - we now have high gas prices so we must adapt.

I think this is the key right here.

We HAVE to adapt.

[NYCmitch25]

^yeah adapt they'd be saluting nazi's if it werent for us

vote obama? some of the shit that guy says is fucking scary

everyone focuses on vehicles which account for a small percentage of the fuel problem. avg house is %30 larger, commutes are %30 longer then 20yrs ago, and of course you need a nice comfortable SUV for that commute.

gas is now $4.30