Race/Religion question - sensible debate

[Mr I]

I was talking to a muslim guy the other day who came from pakistan and now lives in England, has 6 kids here. He seemed like a nice guy and when we got into talking about religion we got quite deep and direct with questions. He like many other Muslims condems the actions of extreemists totally and made a point out of quoting Allah in that there are 73 different types of Muslim, only one will go to heaven, anyone that kills another or converts the young or weak minded to islam is no real muslim.

All really decent stuff, we talked some more and he said that its fact, in 30 years or so Britain will become Britistan as the number of muslims will out number any other race and accordingly the country will be controlled by Sharia Law. I said straight away that offends me, that this is a christian country and its systems including health, social support, freedom of speach were built off that background.

I'm proud of my background, English British and I don't want to see the country become a muslim state, does that make me racist?

Also what can I do about it without being racist? I don't want to see my great grand daughter be forced to wear a burkha and cover her body for fear of prosecution I like the way our country is generally run and think its fair, but i don't want to persecute other to protect it.

I could try have 50 kids, but I can't really afford that and it would mean relying on the state to help me financially and I don't want to be a leach parasite, I could vote for a facist party but i don't want to be racist.

Sometimes as a christian white English male I feel like people want you to feel guilty and afraid of speaking your heart for fear of being a racist but how to protect the way of life you have and your grand parents fought for without persecuting others? the politicians seem so frightened to tackle the subject it just seems like as a country we're sleep walking into a Muslim state.

The guy 'Mohamed' also said that it was proven that all blood even that of whites is 85% Arab, I laughed and said yeah well its also true that that your DNA is 98% Ape as is mine, so what?

I know there are Muslim guys on here and hence why I say I want a sensible debate, so come on:)

[Shibby]

I'm about to leave for work, so I won't get too in depth. First, both Christianity and Islam say in some form that the un-believers should be put to death. I can find quotes later if you want. How people interpret that or try to modernize these archaic beliefs, is very subjective. The battle to which faith should be the majority of a country is an endless battle. That's why the COUNTRY should be secular and let individuals be. Next time you talk to someone that is hoping to change the views of the current country to match the one they left, ask them how well that worked for them in their previous country and if it is so good why not stay where they came from.

[Mr I]

I'm about to leave for work, so I won't get too in depth. First, both Christianity and Islam say in some form that the un-believers should be put to death. I can find quotes later if you want. How people interpret that or try to modernize these archaic beliefs, is very subjective. The battle to which faith should be the majority of a country is an endless battle. That's why the COUNTRY should be secular and let individuals be. Next time you talk to someone that is hoping to change the views of the current country to match the one they left, ask them how well that worked for them in their previous country and if it is so good why not stay where they came from.

Thank you for your input I really appreciate it, there's alot that I'm ignorant of within my own religion which I follow quite losely but love the back bone of. I completely agree that a country should never have a theocratic government but in the case of Islam that does seem to be their end goal wherever they go. I'd be interested in quotes from the original Koran or old or new testiment, I also understand the attrocities comitted by christians in the crusades are nothing to be proud of.

Mohamed was a really amiable character and I appreciated his honesty even if some of it I was offended by, he cited that his understanding was that the last prophet convinced god not to unleash justice on wrong doers until judgement day, ie when someone passes and that its for allah to do that not the individual. He also firmly believes that jihad is a CIA word.

Notwithstanding all this his glee at the prospect of an overwhelming muslim population in the UK was as palpable as my offence at the prospect, right or wrong.

[NewbieChris]

I don't see how Britain will ever become something other than a Christian state when the queen is still the Queen. Doesn't she believe she is a direct descendant of Jesus?

[Bouncer]

i believe in me and i dont care what other people believe. how is that? lol

[Mr I]

I don't see how Britain will ever become something other than a Christian state when the queen is still the Queen. Doesn't she believe she is a direct descendant of Jesus?

The Royals don't run the country we have an elected government that controls everything albeit with a house of lords that decides wether or not statute(law) proposed by the politicians (government) gets passed. The Royals are purely a hangover from yesteryear that we chose to keep around like cultural window dressing. They have no power

[Bouncer]

They have no power

false. they have a huge say in what goes on.

[Mr I]

false. they have a huge say in what goes on.

none that couldn't be rescinded, they own a shit load of land and can intervene in a number of things including political direction but it comes in the form of a constitutional pact and if push came to shove they couldn't do jack.

So if for example a sharia government got in power they could make the royals impotent very quickly

[Bouncer]

none that couldn't be rescinded, they own a shit load of land and can intervene in a number of things including political direction but it comes in the form of a constitutional pact and if push came to shove they couldn't do jack.

So if for example a sharia government got in power they could make the royals impotent very quickly

yes but you said they have no power and that not true. they have a lot of say in whats going on. they can sway things. so that is power.

[Mr I]

yes but you said they have no power and that not true. they have a lot of say in whats going on. they can sway things. so that is power.

ok ok but in the context of Newbie cris's point where he claims there existence would ensure the perpetual christian based state of Britain, thats what I'm getting at:thumup:

[dna9488]

Sounds to me you talked to a stupid paki

Honestly, in tehran you can walk around with no hijab and you will fine. That burka shit is extreme and for fundamentalists. England won't adapt to that so don't worry

Converting someone to Islam is a choice that people make. In the Quran, Allah Ta'la says that converting someone to be a Muslim is good and you will be praised for that in heaven. You should brainwash or force someone to convert, that is a sin.

[NewbieChris]

ok ok but in the context of Newbie cris's point where he claims there existence would ensure the perpetual christian based state of Britain, thats what I'm getting at:thumup:

I find it hard to believe they would allow the country to start condemning women to death for showing their faces, take away your freedom, etc.

[wnabeabeast]

Don't believe in that one day we'll all be Muslim crap I am a Muslim and I couldn't be any further from the religion I believe in being good period.
Saying one day we'll all be Muslim is like saying one day we'll all be black or Asian or whatever race that they can come up with, It is not possible.

[mofo]

as a muslim myself, i don't believe in anything the guy spoke to you about. you can't sway someone to believe in something when there is no physical proof causing them to change their viewpoint. all religions have semi-tangible proof but it is all up to personal interpretation. i call myself a muslim agnostic. i only associate myself with a religion if need be and i try not to argue about which religion is better. nor do i tell people that what they are doing is right or wrong based on my religion.

ultimately, religion is a set of moral beliefs with a little talk about what could happen if you follow or fail to follow those moral beliefs. there are then a set of interpretations that elaborate on the words of God but like i said, they are elaborations which happened to be written by people.

i have spoken to people who were extremists and claim that the world will soon be 1 religion and that all other followers of other religions are going to hell and i just go along with them because most of the time they get too excited about the topic and go crazy.

and for the record, islam respects and encompasses all religions. islam actually says the Day of Judgment will come with all the prophets (including moses and jesus and about 150,000 others) sit side by side (representing no sort of hierarchy) and pray. so to say islam says all others will die is just ridiculous.

[Shibby]

Thank you for your input I really appreciate it, there's alot that I'm ignorant of within my own religion which I follow quite losely but love the back bone of. I completely agree that a country should never have a theocratic government but in the case of Islam that does seem to be their end goal wherever they go. I'd be interested in quotes from the original Koran or old or new testiment,

Well the first part of what you said is just picking and choosing. What's the point of having it at all if you aren't going to accept all of it. All you are doing is putting a theological name to being a good person.

I changed my mind on posting quotes because there are easy enough to find with Google and I feel it will digress the conversation to a debate in meaning of them. Some will argue context, metaphorical vs literal and fundy vs modern. The point is, who determines context, literalness and how to apply it in the current era. It all becomes circular and ignores that fact that as individuals some feel that can't be a good person or live a good life without faith.

You say you are happy with England being a christian country, but don't agree with a theocratic government. So which is it? If need be, you can be proud to be a christian in your country, but why define it as a christian country if you don't want a theocracy.



My head is running crazy now with trying to touch on everything that was said so far, so if you need clarification or elaboration just ask :).