San Bernadine Shooting

[redback]

That's probably true, although cops are perfectly happy to put a bullet in your back even if you are unarmed and running away from them.

Yeh but that's only if you are black

[Scrumhalf]

That's probably true, although cops are perfectly happy to put a bullet in your back even if you are unarmed and running away from them.

[redback]

Yeah red, not sure they are the same issue.

We have a real problem with gun violence in the country. Not sure what the solution is but one thing is clear - we need to find out why we are the worst among the developed world in this regard.

The cop situation is different, I think. At the base of it, what you say may have a kernel of truth, that a culture that tolerates gun violence among criminals or law breakers, will also have a bleedover effect into other areas like law enforcement.

But I thin the reality is more straightforward. It is due to a culture of accommodation by the legal system, where the cop's word is taken as gospel and where there seems to be a tendency to give LE great leeway in justifying its violence. Add to that the war on terror and the war on drugs and you have the toxic brew of a violent constabulary unleashing on the citizens and hiding behind the wall of the WoD and the WoT to justify its actions. I think things are changing now slowly, but LE is still riddled with bad apples. I would say that in the average police department, there are probably 20% good guys who are too scared to jeopardize their career and go against the grain, 50% incompetents that don't care, and 30% sociopaths. A sad situation for sure.

No you misunderstood me. Cop shootings and violence are because you live in a society where any member of the general public could be carrying a gun. Cops are scared shitless of being shot. Cops in other countries just don't open fire on people unless there is very good reason....like they might have a gun...

[Bouncer]

Are you actually serious!!!?

You're an intelligent guy so I assume it's just that you want to be liked by all that prevents you speaking your mind.

Drugs are illegal and controlled in the US. Why doesn't it work?

[Mr I]

We have a real problem with gun violence in the country. Not sure what the solution is

Are you actually serious!!!?

You're an intelligent guy so I assume it's just that you want to be liked by all that prevents you speaking your mind.

[Bouncer]

ISIS praises attacks.

http://www.vocativ.com/news/256909/i...erica-burning/

[Scrumhalf]

Yeah red, not sure they are the same issue.

We have a real problem with gun violence in the country. Not sure what the solution is but one thing is clear - we need to find out why we are the worst among the developed world in this regard.

The cop situation is different, I think. At the base of it, what you say may have a kernel of truth, that a culture that tolerates gun violence among criminals or law breakers, will also have a bleedover effect into other areas like law enforcement.

But I thin the reality is more straightforward. It is due to a culture of accommodation by the legal system, where the cop's word is taken as gospel and where there seems to be a tendency to give LE great leeway in justifying its violence. Add to that the war on terror and the war on drugs and you have the toxic brew of a violent constabulary unleashing on the citizens and hiding behind the wall of the WoD and the WoT to justify its actions. I think things are changing now slowly, but LE is still riddled with bad apples. I would say that in the average police department, there are probably 20% good guys who are too scared to jeopardize their career and go against the grain, 50% incompetents that don't care, and 30% sociopaths. A sad situation for sure.

[chuckz28]

gun law talk again. You guy ever wonder why there are so may issues with your cops over there?

Because they are hot heads that think they are above the law that lack training on how to deal with people problems.

[redback]

gun law talk again. You guy ever wonder why there are so may issues with your cops over there?

[chuckz28]

I've also read that at least one of the shooters was at the party at that place and had some kind of disagreement, left and came back with guns. Let's wait and see how this develops. Not sure what the truth is at this point, whether it is just some kind of workplace violence thing or something else.

Yeah they were reporting that earlier but it seemed odd. This was definitely pre planned if it was multiple people with body armor and at least one explosive device. Definitely have to wait and see.

[Scrumhalf]

I've also read that at least one of the shooters was at the party at that place and had some kind of disagreement, left and came back with guns. Let's wait and see how this develops. Not sure what the truth is at this point, whether it is just some kind of workplace violence thing or something else.

[chuckz28]

One of the shooters name is Saed Farook. His dad said he was a devout Muslim. I see where this shooting is going.

[Scrumhalf]

Answer my question B.. why the US and not Canada or Australia or New Zealand. Do we just have a monopoly on crazy people? Or is something in our policies, our environment, whatever, allow them to act on their crazy impulses? I don't have the answer but what pains me is that as a nation, we seem to be unwilling to confront this and actually make an honest attempt to find out.

Maybe we will find out that Australia and New Zealand have strong gun laws but are islands and intrinsically difficult to smuggle guns into. Maybe we will find out that Canada has strong gun laws but are next to a largely law abiding country like the US.

The US on the other hand has lax gun laws and shares a long and diffult to police border with a semi-lawless country like Mexico, so even if we had strong gun laws, it would be virtually impossible to stop black market guns from just coming across the Southern border.

I don't know. But we need to find out. Unless we think that the status quo is acceptable. And in the mind of any sane rational person, it cannot be acceptable.

[Bouncer]

But what about the drug comparison? Drugs are illegal and controlled and yet there is a massive drug problem. How about Prohibition.. drinking actually increased during Prohibition!

I'm not saying I'm on one side or the other but why would gun control work where drug control has failed?

[Scrumhalf]

Scrum if nationwide bans were in place wouldn't people just get guns from the black market in the same way people on this forum get steroids?

I'm not recommending nationwide bans necessarily. But I think it isn't simply enough to just chalk this down to a bunch of crazies and that gun bans won't work. We need to honestly ask ourselves why countries with very similar origins and culture, Anglo-Saxon-culture based countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealanad don't have the kind of violence that we do. Clearly, they have much tighter gun regulations. Is it that? Is it something else? Just saying that it is a crazy world full of nuts isn't good enough.

The tragedy of America is that we refuse to have that conversation and honest self-appraisal.