San Bernadine Shooting

[Scrumhalf]

While education clearly helps, the issue here isn't that. All the politicians have plenty of education. But it shows that you can have a cabinet full of diplomas but you can still be an imbecile. It is infuriating to watch. But these are the same guys who don't believe in evolution and think that anthropogenic climate change is a hoax. So clearly, critical thinking is not one of their strong suits, and whatever education they got was clearly wasted on them.

[redback]

While education clearly helps, the issue here isn't that. All the politicians have plenty of education. But it shows that you can have a cabinet full of diplomas but you can still be an imbecile. It is infuriating to watch. But these are the same guys who don't believe in evolution and think that anthropogenic climate change is a hoax. So clearly, critical thinking is not one of their strong suits, and whatever education they got was clearly wasted on them.

Agreed its not the issue. Was more in the context of bouncer being a knob.

[Scrumhalf]

Red, if you get a chance, watch a YouTube video called "Canada's debate makes ours look like a sideshow." It compares the election debate in Canada versus the joke here in the US. It is enough to make one weep.

[Bouncer]

Agreed its not the issue. Was more in the context of bouncer being a knob.

You just ranted about higher education, critical thinking, and the need for a college education to think on a certain level. Scrum tells you its not the issue and you quickly agree and deflect. Did you learn your debating skills in college? Which course was it that taught you the word "knob" and how to use it in context when you're in over your head?

[Scrumhalf]

Our education system is nothing to be proud of. Not sure how it is on Oz and other countries, but the level of critical thinking I am talking about, recognizing a problem, weighing the pros and cons and arriving at a sensible solution, is something every high schooler ought to be able to do. The fact that we can't seem to even talk about this without having everyone move to their ideological pole is distressing to say the least. The discussion on this forum is just a microcosm of what's happening at the national level.

[chuckz28]

I dont even know why im playing into this narrative since this is a terrorism issue. I've studied philosophy and anthropology at a University and switched my field getting an associate of applied science from a community college. Out of all that the most beneficial critical thinking training I recieved was a two day class on principles of troubleshooting taught by a vendor to my work.

[Bouncer]

Red, if you get a chance, watch a YouTube video called "Canada's debate makes ours look like a sideshow." It compares the election debate in Canada versus the joke here in the US. It is enough to make one weep.

Scrum, as an engineer I'm sure you realize that small scale does not always translate. As things become bigger new sets of problems are introduced. You cannot compare a nation of 35 million people to a nation of 320 million people.

A democracy as large as ours comes with unique and inherent drawbacks. Our forefathers understood this.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

[Scrumhalf]

What's that got to do with anything? I'm not comparing Canada and the US. I'm comparing the tenor of the debate - one sounds like a discussion of global and national issues by reasoned adults, and the other sounds like a ridiculous schoolground squabble between a bunch of elementary school kids. The fact that that most poweful country in the world is the one having the playground discussion is all the more sad.

[Bouncer]

It has to do with the larger picture of your consistent comparison of the United States to much smaller democracies as a way to prove a point. Scale is everything and your comparisons are hugely flawed.

[Scrumhalf]

Depends on what we are talking about. If I say, "look, Costa Rica doesn't have a standing army, why should we?," then you have a right to say that the comparison isn't valid.

But when I say, "Look, countries like Canada and Norway seem to be able to have intelligent debates about the issues facing them and take sensible consensus decisions, why can't we?," then I am not sure that just because we are a big country and they are not, we can't emulate them.

[Bouncer]

Intelligent debate is one thing. Putting things into practice is another. It's much easier to manage on a small scale.

Me and you don't disagree that there is a problem. We disagree on the finer points. The black market aspect is something nobody wants to talk about. Gun restrictions will strengthen illegal weapons trade in the same way that drug restrictions have strengthened illegal drug trade. People that want to shoot up a building will acquire weapons in the same way that I acquire steroids... The black market.

[Scrumhalf]

Again, we seem to be talking past each other. Our own little conversation seems to be a metaphor for the larger national conversation.

I know there is a black market for guns. I know that if there are restrictions on guns, there is going to be a black market for them. The terrorists, the guys who really want to get guns, are going to get them through the black market regardless of what laws are in place. I am not disputing that.

However, if we reexamine our gun laws and see if there are ways to prevent the other guys, the mentally unstable guys, the school shooters, the disgruntled worker who goes out and buys a gun and brings it in to work, etc., could we prevent some of those guys from getting guns in the first place? I am not talking about 100% effective laws. That's never going to be there. But if we can cut the bottom 30% from the distribution, the guys who would never have, if there were more effective screening, been able to acquire a firearm, that's still 1/3 less violence of these sorts. Wouldn't that be a worthwhile goal?

Nobody is saying gut the 2nd Amendment. Nobody is saying come into people houses and confiscate their guns. But every time we even talk about having a conversation about the middle ground, where lawful gun owners can enjoy their gun ownership, while some fraction of the others could be prevented from having guns, immediately, the gun lobby goes berserk.

We cannot have a solution if we don't sit down and talk. The alternative is to say nothing can be done. Great, and we will then need to stop complaining every time something bad happens.

[redback]

You just ranted about higher education, critical thinking, and the need for a college education to think on a certain level. Scrum tells you its not the issue and you quickly agree and deflect. Did you learn your debating skills in college? Which course was it that taught you the word "knob" and how to use it in context when you're in over your head?

lol debating team? Oh I 'deflected' did I? My point on education was about you not understanding scrums comparisons not that education was a factor in the gun issue. If you had any sort of education you would understand that.

[Mr I]

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[Bouncer]

lol debating team? Oh I 'deflected' did I? My point on education was about you not understanding scrums comparisons not that education was a factor in the gun issue. If you had any sort of education you would understand that.

I'd put in a request for a refund if I were you.