Miami Beach has run out of sand. Now what?

[Bouncer]

Interesting article.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/17/1...climate-change

[Scrumhalf]

Don't worry, it will be all underwater pretty soon.

The North Pole is 36F warmer than normal right now.

http://www.ecowatch.com/north-pole-s...098350838.html

[Bouncer]

Earth warms and cools in cycles scrum. I get the sense from your post that your fully blaming humans for rising temps.

We've played a part absolutely but we aren't the end all cause of the problem. Oceans were rising and falling, cooling and heating long before humans were around. We may have sped up the heating cycle but it would have happened regardless. Just like a future cooling cycle will happen regardless.

[Scrumhalf]

What, you are a climate contrarian now?

Yes, there are normal temperature swings through the history of the earth, but the temperatures are moving higher much faster than normal and this is without question due to human fossil fuel burning and industrial activity. If we don't act quickly, there is a point of no return being which the temperatures will run away from us and there's no turning back. That will be really bad.

The science is pretty clear on this.

[Bouncer]

What, you are a climate contrarian now?

Yes, there are normal temperature swings through the history of the earth, but the temperatures are moving higher much faster than normal and this is without question due to human fossil fuel burning and industrial activity. If we don't act quickly, there is a point of no return being which the temperatures will run away from us and there's no turning back. That will be really bad.

The science is pretty clear on this.

I've always said the same thing. We've played a part but the earth warms and cools naturally like a pulse over thousands and millions of years. Oceans dry up, oceans rise. Ice ages turn into tropical ages turn into desert ages..

We've sped the process up, I'm not denying that. But this "point of no return" will happen regardless scrum. It may have come at a later date without humans I grant you that but its a process that absolutely would have happened regardless of human interference.

Am I saying we should just say fuck it and increase emissions? Absolutely not. We only have 1 home and we need to take care of it. I'm simply arguing your implication that humans are flat out fully responsible for global rising temps.

There are people that deny global warming or deny humans have played any part in it. (Trump). There are others who say it's 100% human created. (You). I'm saying the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Scrumhalf]

You are putting words in my mouth. The ACCELERATED warming we are seeing is human caused without doubt. We are speeding things up and that can add to instability.

[Bouncer]

We don't disagree. The question is by precisely how much have we sped things up?

The thing about science being "pretty clear" on a subject is that it's sure of it's self until it isn't. Pluto was pretty clearly a planet at one point until the very definition changed of what a planet is.

I'm not against science, I'm not against climate change. You know this. I am against people claiming that we have an exact picture of how much humans have contributed to the problem. We don't. Just because I question the "pretty clear" science doesn't mean I deny it.

Have we sped it up by 50 years, 75 years, 100 years, or 1000 years? There is no exact answer to this.

What we do know is that human or no human, global warming is something that comes and goes like the tide of an ocean over thousands and millions of years.

This "point of no return" you speak of is a catch phrase IMO. Used in the same way that Trump uses "let's make America great again". It's for a good cause I get it, to try and get people to cut down on emissions which we should be doing regardless. But it's a scare tactic none the less. The earth will continue to warm and that "point of no return" will come and has come in the past regardless of human interference.

[rado]

Don't worry, it will be all underwater pretty soon.

The North Pole is 36F warmer than normal right now.

North Pole an Insane 36 Degrees Warmer Than Normal as Region Hits Record Low Sea Ice Extent

You sound like turbo more as of late, a pessimistic person. Ever since the election, your posts are or seem this way.

[Scrumhalf]

You sound like turbo more as of late, a pessimistic person. Ever since the election, your posts are or seem this way.

It's only the existential threat of our time. People should take it seriously.

[rado]

It's only the existential threat of our time. People should take it seriously.

Easier said than done bro. All im saying is that before the election, you seemed to be more of a positive poster and as of late, you have not.

Regardless of topic scrum.

Just an observation:)

[Scrumhalf]

Just keeping it real. Lots of positives happening in the world, but I see lots of darkness here. Don't care about GOP vs Dems here. Just focusing on policy. Foreign policy, science, climate change. We are on the wrong path. We have been sci-tech leaders in the US since Ww2. We will hand that over if we persist on the path we seem to be on. As a person who has spent his entire adult life in science and engineering in the US, that's hard to swallow.

This is real talk. No bs.

[Bouncer]

It's only the existential threat of our time.

A nuclear Pakistan vs India, a nuclear Israel vs Iran, a nuclear South Korea vs North Korea, a new arms race between US, China, and Russia... I'd say that ranks right up there and is actually much easier to truly manage and understand.

Problem with fixing the emissions problem is that normal people don't get it. They think, "right, I'll get myself a Prius and save the world". Problem is, the manufacturing process and materials needed in the Prius and it's batteries are something like 5 times as toxic to make compared to something like a civic.

[Bouncer]

check this out scrum.

First power drawn from tidal turbines off the coast of Scotland | Ars Technica

[Scrumhalf]

check this out scrum.

First power drawn from tidal turbines off the coast of Scotland | Ars Technica

Yeah, the Scots are doing some great stuff with wind turbines. There's a lot of momentum with renewable energy. China and India are going ganbusters with solar.

See, this is what worries me with the new administration. We have a pretty large presence in the worldwide renewable energy market with companies like GE. But all indications are that Trump is going to cut funding for renewable energy research. The US is among the leaders right now, but without funding, we will slip.

Right now, clean energy is where computer chips were in the late 70s and early 80s. I was there as a young engineer in the mid-80s and I know how key government funding was for a lot of the research in to semiconductors, computer architecture, optical fiber communications, etc. If we don't do the same thing with clean energy, somebody else will. India, China, Korea and Europe are pouring a lot of money into it. In 20 years, I am worried we will be an also-ran in what I believe is the next big thing. I hope common sense prevails.

[Bouncer]

Well the only positive I can think of is that things take time and hopefully 4 years won't be long enough for Trump to set us on a path too far behind in renewable energy.

I will say though scrum, driving from Chicago to Cali, I must have saw at least 500 wind turbines. I was surprised by that. I guess I didn't realize so many were already in place. What I didn't see was any solar farms. I would have expected to see more of those especially in the desert states. Isn't solar more efficient than wind turbines?