To Add Or Not To Add Protein Powder?

[Bouncer]

So I've been doing the whole food thing for a few years now. Now powder whatsoever. I'm thinking of adding it back in for 1 reason.. PWO. Sometimes almost 2 hours goes by between the end of my workout and my PWO meal. If the bro science of a "PWO window" is to be believed I am missing out on a valuable time when my body needs nutrients.

Thoughts for or against? Does that PWO window immediately after training really matter or is it something that we think matters but in the real world the difference is negligible?

[rado]

There's plenty of evidence that consuming proper nutrients after a workout, helps recovery and repair torn muscle.

For me? After my training, whether it be running, xfit or reg gym stuff....well I go home afterwards and it takes me about 4mns if i go to the gym and 20mns if I'm at xfit. Although many times I've not gone home right away and that's fine. I really try my hardest to not let it consume me.

Although being in really good fit shape, does require tons of work and because of that, I try to focus on other shit.

But good post. I've wondered myself since I've been on both sides; taking my nutrients right after and not taking anything.

[BEAST]

Yup add it in. I'm not looking at from recovery angle but fact that you are trying to put on size means you have to increase your protein intake. And your intake is limited with just chicken breast or solid foods, so getting extra 50 or more grams of protein a day is going to help you with that.

[AvidFisherman]

A little whIle ago I spoke to a pro-weightlifting nutritionist and that was one of my questions. He said that the windows for nutrient intake is a lot bigger than most people think and whether you consume the protein right after working out or a couple hours later, it makes little difference, just don't wait more than a couple hours.

I forgot to ask his openion on eating pixie sticks or gummy bears right after working out to create an insulin spike though. But in my mind it's far more important to create that insulin spike right after working out than taking protein right after working out to increase muscle growth.

[BEAST]

There are studies showing that eating simple carbs after a workout versus a regular meal. And the conclusion is, there is no need for a high insulin spike to drive the needed nutritions in to the muscle cell.

Scroll down to post #9.

http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums...k-when-cutting

And the same article posted by scrum as revisit. :)

http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums...nabolic-window

[wheyman]

I'd say for the sake of PWO, yes. Unless you're a machine that eats everything you need, every single day, then you need a little help with protein shakes.

As far as carbs after the workout...Charles Poliquin said "if you're fat then skip the carbs PWO"...So I do. LOL.

If you're going to use a meal as your PWO, then eat your carbs first, then the protein.

[AvidFisherman]

“eat some fast-digesting carbs after working out: the resulting spike in insulin -- an anabolic hormone -- will drive muscle growth and deposit those carbs in your muscle fibers without storing additional fat. To get the most muscle and the biggest burn, try pairing whey protein with rice cakes, white bread, a plain baked potato (fatty toppings, such as butter or sour cream, will slow digestion and delivery of the carbs to the bloodstream, so avoid them) or just mix some table sugar into your protein shake”

GET HIGH WORKOUTS. By: Elliott, Tabatha, Joe Weider's Muscle & Fitness, 07445105, 20080801, Vol. 69, Issue 8
• Every good lifter knows the rules when it comes to post-workout nutrition. You want a fast-digesting carb to take with your protein shake to spike insulin levels as high as possible, which better promotes muscle recovery and growth. Good fast-carb options include sports drinks like Gatorade, plain white breads and fat-free candy such as jelly beans and Gummy Bears. An even better option is a high molecular-weight carb (HMWC). HMWCs are typically made from waxy maize, which digests even more rapidly than sugar and leads to higher spikes in insulin. One HMWC supplement you may be familiar with is Vitargo. A new study from Queen's Medical Centre, University of Nottingham, shows that HMWCs spike insulin levels much higher after exercise than other fast-digesting carbs.
Dose It Like This: Within 30 minutes after workouts, add 60-100 grams of HMWCs to your protein shake.



COUNTING ON CARBS. By: Brown, Jordana, Flex, 87508915, 20061201, Vol. 24, Issue 10
Why carbohydrates are good before and after workouts -- even if you're trying to lose fat
Despite having its fair share of detractors, the sport of bodybuilding has long been ahead of its time. Eating a high-protein diet for optimal health and performance, periodically cycling training programs for maximal muscle gains, and taking dietary supplements to improve health, performance and physique were key bodybuilding practices before Larry Scott won the first Olympia in 1965. Exercise scientists since have shown that all those principles can be beneficial for the wider population.
The most recent example of this phenomenon involves postworkout nutrition. FLEX's longstanding advice on the number of grams of protein and carbs to consume pre-and postworkout is 20 g of whey protein and 40 g of carbs before a workout, and 20-40 g of whey protein with 40-100 g of fast-burning carbs afterward, regardless of whether you're on a low-carb diet. Other experts often recommend eliminating both pre- and postworkout carbs entirely if the goal is losing bodyfat.
Sport nutrition research, however, is changing all that, and if you're one of those bodybuilders who ignores our advice and doesn't eat after workouts when in a diet phase, you'd better pay attention. In a study published in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, researchers at Virginia Commonwealth University (Richmond) had nine resistance-trained men eat a high-fat meal (consisting of about 750 calories in the following proportions: 37% carbohydrates, 18% protein and 45% fat), a high-carb meal (about the same number of calories, but in these proportions: 79% carbs, 20% protein and 1% fat), or just drink plain water 45 minutes after a weightlifting workout. Their rates of fat and carbohydrate oxidation (or burning) were then measured, along with the levels of insulin and sugar in their blood. Insulin and blood-sugar levels were, as expected, significantly higher in the high-carb group than in the other two; however, rates of fat- and carb-burning after training were the same whether the subjects ate more carbs or fat, or just drank water.
Translation? Eating a postworkout meal of whey and carbs will not affect your diet when you're trying to drop pounds -- you'll burn fat at the same rate as if you hadn't eaten.
Lest you think that's more of a draw than an outright win for FLEX's position, let us remind you why you ought to eat some fast-digesting carbs after working out: the resulting spike in insulin -- an anabolic hormone -- will drive muscle growth and deposit those carbs in your muscle fibers without storing additional fat. To get the most muscle and the biggest burn, try pairing whey protein with rice cakes, white bread, a plain baked potato (fatty toppings, such as butter or sour cream, will slow digestion and delivery of the carbs to the bloodstream, so avoid them) or just mix some table sugar into your protein shake




YOUR NUTRITION PROBLEMS SOLVED. Flex, 87508915, 20050101, Vol. 22, Issue 11
Q | FLEX says to take in simple carbs before, during and after a workout. How can I do that?
A | You can do it by finding a ready-made drink or premixed powder that contains simple carbs. Often, weight-gain shakes are excellent options for adding carbs to your workout nutrition. You can order dextrose and maltodextrin in bulk from any of several supplement companies. Add these sugars to a whey-protein product (in a 2:1 ratio of sugars to protein) that doesn't already contain carbs. Many supplement companies offer products that are mostly simple carbs but also contain recovery and growth ingredients, such as creatine and glutamine. They can be mixed into protein shakes, too. (Also, see our answer to the Net Gains question about current pre- and postworkout recommendations.)
If you want to go the food route, go for fast-digesting carb sources. Eat a bagel or two (depending on the size) or several slices of white bread (add jelly if you want to), or drink Gatorade or Coke with your protein shake. You can also mix dry rice cereal (the kind made for babies) into your protein shake. Besides being a source of fast-digesting carbs, that type of cereal will add thickness and texture to your protein shake.
Postworkout, try to avoid fiber and fats, as they will slow down the digestion of the simple carbs and protein.
About an hour after your postworkout meal, eat a whole-food meal with protein, complex carbs, healthy fats and fiber. A good example is a steak plus a medium-sized yam, salad with olive oil and vinegar, and a vegetable, such as broccoli or asparagus




Q My boyfriend drinks a recovery drink after our workouts. I drink a meal-replacement drink, but he says it doesn't have the same effect and isn't replacing my glycogen stores. Frankly, his drink seems too full of sugar for me, especially since I put on weight easily. I hate to add unnecessary calories to my diet. Don't I replenish glycogen with all my carb meals throughout the day? Is there some thing I could eat after a workout that would do the trick?
A Post-workout nutrition is one of the most critical issues of sports nutrition -- and one of the most misunderstood. Here three experts share their opinions.
A Winning Combination
LISA A. REED, MS, CSCS, USAW, is a strength and conditioning coach and IFBB pro fitness athlete. She serves as the director of strength and conditioning at the National Cathedral School in Washington, D.C., and is a member of Team MET-Rx. She placed second at the 2002 Atlantic States Pro Fitness Show, qualifying to compete at this year's Fitness Olympia.
Replenishing muscle glycogen stores after exercise is beneficial for all athletes, male or female. Glycogen repletion occurs faster immediately after exercise because the blood flow to the muscles is much greater. The muscle cell is also more likely to take up glucose and is more sensitive to the effects of insulin (the hormone that takes sugar out of blood and into muscle), which promotes glycogen synthesis.
With all this in mind, it's best' to eat within the 30-45-minute post-workout window to maximize glycogen uptake. Carbohydrates are a must as well: you should have 0.5 gram of carbohydrate per pound of bodyweight. An athlete who weighs 150 pounds, for example, should eat 75 grams of carbs right after training; this could be a meal Composed of 1 1/3 cups cooked oatmeal, one-quarter cup raisins and 1 cup skim milk. Protein can also enhance glycogen replacement after hard exercise and promote muscle synthesis. A winning combination would include 1 gram of protein for every 3 grams of carbohydrate.
Food sources would be my first choice, such as protein-rich skim milk with cereal, a couple of slices of turkey on a whole-wheat bagel, or a little lean meat in spaghetti. Otherwise, food supplements like the MET-Rx original vanilla drink mix made with skim milk and a banana would enhance the recovery process. Remember, it's also beneficial to eat well throughout the day, but post-exercise refueling is crucial for muscle recovery, growth and repair.
Why Sugar Is Good
TRACEY GREENWOOD is an IFBB pro fitness competitor. She holds two master's degrees in health education and exercise physiology, and is a doctoral candidate in exercise physiology at Temple University in Philadelphia. She teaches anatomy and physiology at Cabrini College in Radnor, Pennsylvania. Tracey placed ninth at the 2002 Dallas Pro Show and the 2002 Atlantic States Pro Fitness Show.
You have two storage sites in the body for glycogen -- the muscle, which is the primary and larger storage site, and the liver. Muscle glycogen is the major source of carbohydrate energy during exercise, and liver glycogen reconverts to glucose for transport into the blood to the active muscle. Heavy, intense exercise will diminish and possibly deplete both glycogen stores, which is why glycogen repletion immediately after exercise is important. You need to be particularly concerned if you follow a low-carbohydrate diet. Whether you have a carbohydrate recovery drink or a sweet potato post-exercise, it's going to help replenish those muscle glycogen stores. Carbs with a higher sugar content will spike blood glucose the fastest and, thus, optimize muscle glycogen repletion. That's why so many people reach for high-sugar carbohydrate drinks.
Combining your post-workout carb choice with protein, particularly a whey protein supplement, will help increase your plasma insulin and growth hormone levels. That's good, because the levels of catabolic hormones in your body -- cortisol and ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone) -- increase during intense exercise such as very strenuous weight training or cardiovascular activity. The ACTH is released from your pituitary gland in response to fiber damage caused by intense exercise. The release of the ACTH causes the release of cortisol, which helps suppress inflammation, and that causes muscle to break down into amino acids, which will be used for protein synthesis. When you take in carbs and protein immediately post-workout, it helps to decrease those ACTH and cortisol levels and increase your levels of insulin and growth hormone, which promotes muscle protein growth.
Your meal replacement drink probably suits your needs just fine. Your goals and needs probably aren't the same as your boyfriend's, so you don't need that quantity of dextrose immediately after a workout. Yet the same things are happening hormonally in your body in terms of the cortisol release, which your meal replacement drink should address adequately. Further, if you have a high carbohydrate intake during the day, you probably aren't reaching carbohydrate depletion during exercise. And unless you're performing 90 minutes or more of cardiovascular exercise every time you work out, you're probably not reaching depletion.
Recipe for Glycogen Replacement
SUSAN KUNDRAT, MS, RD, is a sports and wellness nutritionist with Nutrition on the Move in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois.
Depending on the length, intensity and makeup of your workouts, post-exercise fuel can be crucial in your recovery and performance. Based on many studies on athletes training at least once a day and for long periods (60 minutes at a time or longer), athletes can benefit from recovery fuel supplying at least 0.5 gram of carbohydrate per pound of bodyweight. For instance, if you weigh 140 pounds, I'd recommend consuming 70 grams of carbohydrate within 30 minutes of your workout to help replenish glycogen stores. I also suggest adding another one-third of that amount in protein in your recovery fuel -- so that's an additional 20-25 grams of protein. Many formulated drinks or shakes provide a good mix of carbohydrate and protein to meet your needs.
Or mix up your own shake with plain low-fat yogurt, fresh fruit, 100% juice and soy protein powder. These calories should be counted into your total daily intake, so you may need to decrease your carbohydrate and protein intake a bit at another meal or snick to compensate.
Do you have a bodybuilding nutrition question for our experts? Write us at M&F Nutrition Rx, 21100 Erwin St., Woodland Hills, California 91367, or e-mail us at M&[email protected]. We will try to answer questions of general interest to our readers



INSULIN: TO SPIKE OR NOT TO SPIKE? By: HAYCOCK, BRYAN, Flex, 87508915, 20120701, Vol. 30, Issue 7
BIG ASS MASS
Post-exercise nutrition is critical for maximum gains. The stimulus of training triggers signaling pathways within muscle cells that allows for greatly enhanced muscle protein synthesis rates. These pathways do not stay active for long, however. There is a window of opportunity immediately post-exercise in which one can significantly increase the anabolic effects of ingested nutrients. This window stays open for a couple of hours at most. After that, the impact of nutrient intake on muscle protein synthesis gradually declines. The more "trained" you are, the faster the anabolic sensitivity dissipates.
The obvious question for most at this point is, "What nutrients will allow me to best take advantage of this anabolic window?" It has been known for many years that protein, or more specifically amino acid availability, is critical to maximize the effects of your post-workout feeding. What has also been recommended is that you ingest a high glycemic-index carbohydrate along with your protein. This would not only replace glycogen used during your workout, but also create an insulin spike that would presumably enhance protein synthesis. After all, insulin is an "anabolic" hormone.
Over the years there have been many studies performed to illustrate the importance of timing post-workout protein and carbohydrate intake. Surprisingly, there have been only two studies looking at the true influence of carbohydrates and/or insulin in combination with protein on the rate of muscle protein synthesis post-workout. After all, it seemed obvious that you needed an insulin spike to maximize protein synthesis. If we take a look at those two studies that did question the importance of adding high-glycemic carbs to post-workout protein drinks, what we find might surprise you.
In 2007, a group working out of Maastricht University in the Netherlands examined the impact of adding carbohydrates on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.[1] They had 10 healthy 20-somethings work out for one hour using a traditional resistance exercise protocol. The three post-workout treatment conditions were protein only (PRO), protein with a low carbohydrate dose (PRO + LCHO), or protein with a high carbohydrate dose (PRO + HCHO). A total of 12 servings were given every 30 minutes for each treatment condition to ensure a continuous and ample supply of both glucose and amino acids during the six hours of recovery. Each subject returned seven days later to receive a different post-exercise treatment until all had been tested under each condition.
Their results indicated that, given an ample amount of easily digested high-quality protein (casein hydrolysates), added carbohydrates had no effect on post-workout protein synthesis rates regardless of the amount of carbs given.
In support of these findings, another study more recently published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise utilized a similar protocol (i.e., workouts followed by protein or protein + carbs) but this time they were more interested in the impact of creating a post-workout insulin spike.2 Would it affect protein synthesis rates? Would it decrease protein breakdown? Would it trigger anabolic signaling pathways more effectively? You probably know where this is heading. The answer is no, it didn't. Spiking insulin didn't reduce protein breakdown, and it didn't enhance anabolic signaling pathways. The insulin spike didn't even increase muscle blood flow! What appears to have happened was, because they used a protein source (whey) that has already been shown to maximally stimulate post-exercise protein synthesis as well as increase insulin levels, no further anabolic effect was possible even from an insulin spike. The insulin level triggered by whey alone was able to maximally inhibit protein breakdown, increase blood flow, and activate anabolic signaling pathways.
The take-home message is: Just make sure you are getting some high-quality, easily digested protein into your gullet immediately after your workout. Whether you ad carbs or not will not have a significant effect either way.




JUST EAT IT! By: Elliott, Tabatha, Joe Weider's Muscle & Fitness, 07445105, 20080201, Vol. 69, Issue 2
You've heard our advice regarding postworkout nutrition before: Consume about 40 grams of fast-digesting whey protein and 40-100 grams of fast-digesting carbs such as white bread or sports drinks. These nutrients are essential to muscle recovery and encourage growth.
However, some bodybuilders who are dieting to get lean have expressed concern about eating all those carbs following workouts, especially those on low-carb diets. After all, you burn more fat for several hours afterward, so many argue that eating carbs postworkout, which spikes insulin levels, decreases the fat-burning effect.
To those who worry, you shouldn't. Every bodybuilder -- whether on a low-carb, get-lean diet or not -- should still consume plenty of whey and fast carbs after training. Research from Virginia Commonwealth University (Richmond) confirms it. Scientists had male subjects with an average of six years of lifting experience complete a weight workout consisting of three sets of 10 reps on each of these exercises: leg press, bench press, leg extension, overhead press, seated row, lat pulldown, leg curl and biceps curl. After training, subjects consumed one of the following liquids: water; a high-carb shake consisting of approximately 750 calories that was about 80% carbs (about 150 grams) and 20% protein (about 35 grams); or a high-fat shake consisting of approximately 750 calories that was about 35% carbs (about 65 grams), 20% protein (about 35 grams) and 45% fat (about 35 grams).
The researchers reported in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research that, regardless of which drink the subjects consumed following their workouts, the amount of fat they burned stayed the same. The one major difference between the drinks was that insulin levels spiked only when subjects drank the high-carb shake. The take-home message here is that even when you're trying to drop bodyfat, it's best to consume carbs following your workouts. It spikes insulin, which helps drive muscle growth, yet doesn't inter-fare with the amount of fat you burn

[AvidFisherman]

There is a window of opportunity immediately post-exercise in which one can significantly increase the anabolic effects of ingested nutrients. This window stays open for a couple of hours at most. After that, the impact of nutrient intake on muscle protein synthesis gradually declines. The more "trained" you are, the faster the anabolic sensitivity dissipates.

It seems that the more trained you are the shorter the anabolic window is, so if you are new to lifting you have a longer anabolic window than a bodybuilder... so I am taking away, Bouncer, you should take in some fast acting carbs and protein soon after you workout.

[AvidFisherman]

I'd say for the sake of PWO, yes. Unless you're a machine that eats everything you need, every single day, then you need a little help with protein shakes.

As far as carbs after the workout...Charles Poliquin said "if you're fat then skip the carbs PWO"...So I do. LOL.

If you're going to use a meal as your PWO, then eat your carbs first, then the protein.

You wont gain fat if you consume your carbs right after a good workout.

For post workout nutrition it makes sense to eat carbs first but for other meals you should eat your protein and fat first and your carbs last because it will inhibit carb absorbtion. If you eat carbs last studies show blood sugar levels to be 29 percent lower after 30 minutes and 37 percent lower after 60 minutes post meal.

[Bouncer]

Really good info guys, thanks. Ended up buying some whey today at Costco. $40 for 6lbs I thought that was a decent price for an isolate and concentrate blend.

Gonna start taking 2 scoops of protein and a tbsp of sugar mixed in just to get a but of a slin spike. Sugar good idea or leave it out?

[wheyman]

Really good info guys, thanks. Ended up buying some whey today at Costco. $40 for 6lbs I thought that was a decent price for an isolate and concentrate blend.

Gonna start taking 2 scoops of protein and a tbsp of sugar mixed in just to get a but of a slin spike. Sugar good idea or leave it out?

I, personally, wouldn't mix the sugar with the protein. If you're wanting the spike maybe waxy maize or malto/dex mix first, then slam your protein shake. That's assuming we're talking PWO. If you're talking about a meal replacement, I like to blend half a banana or throw in some olive oil to make it slower digesting.

[wheyman]

For post workout nutrition it makes sense to eat carbs first but for other meals you should eat your protein and fat first and your carbs last because it will inhibit carb absorbtion. If you eat carbs last studies show blood sugar levels to be 29 percent lower after 30 minutes and 37 percent lower after 60 minutes post meal.

I agree with this too. I was strictly talking about PWO methods, but yes other meals outside this time frame would be protein/fat first then carbs. :thumb:

[AvidFisherman]

Bodybuilding: Dextrose Vs. Maltodextrin | LIVESTRONG.COM

(More concise explanation of the information in the articles I posted earlier)
The Muscle-Building Messenger: Your Complete Guide To Insulin

Gatorade and Powerade contain maltodextrin

Gummy Bears from Haribo contain dextrose.

In one of the articles I posted the author talked about adding table sugar to your protein drink. Other articles I have read vie against this because table sugar is half glucose and half fructose and they do not create as dramatic of an insulin spike as dextrose or maltodextrin.

A lot of my buddies and I buy Haribo Gummy Bears in bulk and put them in zip lock bags to take to the gym.

[wheyman]

AvidFisherman, when we're talking about eating carbs first, then protein for PWO and then eating protein/fat first then carbs for other meals, what are we looking at for the amount of time between?

PWO Scenario - You take in carbs first, then wait how long to slam your protein? I thought remember reading waiting 20 minutes.

Other meals - You eat your protein/fat first, then eat your carbs. How long do you wait to eat the carbs?

Thoughts?

[Bouncer]

This is where I think people get off track. You guys are now talking about carb timing and when to eat it vs when to eat the protein etc... Guys on paper this might make a small difference but in reality there isn't one. Quick easily digestible protein and a bit of carbs immediately after a hard workout is all you need. Stressing over the tiny details just isn't nessisary or worth your time. Give your body what it needs to grow and grow it shall!