Confusing Problem

[Mick]

Over the last few weeks my tris seem to have deflated dramatically. I love training my tris, probably my favourite muscle to train. I do train them sensibly though, around 10-12 days recovery between workouts. I'm also eating correctly (my diet and approach to training is found in the topic "moving over to AS" in the anabolic discussion section. Anyway, my tris have always been really full, love tensing them just to feel them (sad, I know, what can I say ;)) but for the first time in well over a year, they feel really empty (can't think of a better word to describe it), their still hard, they just don't feel full at all, and they look less full as well.

Has anybody got any ideas as to what might be causing this?

If you need further info on my training routines, or eating, then feel free to ask, just want my tris back :(

Mick.

[Slashmonay]

giving yourself 10-12 days to rest is too much bro. Train like u mean it! Tri's need 3-4 days and they are good to go bro

[JUICE]

ive probably felt that before too. I dont know if its the same but theres been times i trained them once a week, its a good workout too but later during the week they feel empty and soft. Thats why I do 4 different exercises and 3-4 sets of each to really hit them. I wasnt feeling shit doing 3exercises 3sets of each. I need more.

Also like Slashman said, ur taking too long in training them. Try doing them every 3-5 days. Also depends on how ur routine is like, as in have u changed the exercises u've been doing. Gotta change every 3-6 weeks to avoid hitting brick walls.

[Stonecold54]

Originally posted by Slashmonay
giving yourself 10-12 days to rest is too much bro. Train like u mean it! Tri's need 3-4 days and they are good to go bro

not true at all. 10-12 days should be minimum.

[Mick]

I don't think I could train my tris any closer than 10-12 days apart, or any other muscle for that matter. Sometimes after a really intense session I'm still aching, barely able to move the affected muscle, for around 5 days after. I don't feel anything after the workout, or anything the day after, just seem to get the shakes in the muscles I've trained. But the day after that, the pain starts to creep in, and the day after that it's really intense and eventually it levels out and disappears by the fifth/sixth day.

I asume therefore that after the pain has gone the healing process will be up to speed and it'll will take a further five to six days to fully recover, or maybe more as stonecold was saying.

Used to train every muscle group every couple of days when I very first started out, but I've found by leaving ample time to recover, the gains came about far easier and quicker.

[Stonecold54]

what is your exact tricep routine? include secondary work too such as pressing movements or dips.

[Taylor]

Originally posted by stonecold54
not true at all. 10-12 days should be minimum.

i'm not trying to start conflict or nothing, but aren't you on steroids? I remember reading you were on a cycle of some sorts....how would a person not using those continue to grow only working a muscle every 12 days? that sounds impossible to me

[Stonecold54]

Originally posted by Taylor
i'm not trying to start conflict or nothing, but aren't you on steroids? I remember reading you were on a cycle of some sorts....how would a person not using those continue to grow only working a muscle every 12 days? that sounds impossible to me

because most people think like you are...steroids put someone in a FAVORABLE position because they skew the ration of ananbolic/catabolic steroids. It basically means that the symptoms and signs of overtraining with be delayed or masked for a given amount of time in the context of the specific person. That in turn means you can work out more often and for longer than normal (though I would still never recommend more than three workouts a week even for a heavy cycler). now if you look at a natural person. they don't have that advantage of having exogenous anabolics to help them over come the catabolic to anabolic ratio. They don't have the increased recovery and stamina that steroids are associated with. Which in turn means they can't work out as often or as long as someone who is taking anabolics. Now this position disregards a persons Fiber type which has more to do with how often a muscle group is worked out. also i hope you don't think his WORKOUTS are spaced 12 days apart....he is only saying that his tricep workout is that far apart. SO he could do triceps on monday then thurdsday do legs then sunday do back/biceps/ and then wednsday be back to triceps. that is about 10 days of rest for the muscle group but not the body.

[Mick]

You got it spot on there stonecold, I don't train every 12 days, I just train particular muscles every 10-12 days while still training others in between. I can't really understand how people can train the same muscles 3-4 days apart. As I've said, I'm still hurting like hell during that period after training, and if you're still hurting that should be the biggest indicator of all that you haven't healed yet.

As for my tri routine, it changes every few month, but at the mo' it's skull-crushers or lying tricep press or whatever people call em these days (love this exercise, really really feel the burn on the rear head of the tri, just below the rear of the deltoid). Then it's on to cable pull-over (again, sorry if the terminology isn't quite right, basically facing away from the stack of weights, leaning forward lower arms pointing along the same line as your body, and just bending the foremarms until their about 90 degrees from start. Finally finish with some pump-up burning sets of dips.

[JUICE]

Originally posted by Mick
You got it spot on there stonecold, I don't train every 12 days, I just train particular muscles every 10-12 days while still training others in between. I can't really understand how people can train the same muscles 3-4 days apart.

i think each person is different in the way the body reacts. Ive have some gym buddies who do each bodypart 2 times per week and are grwoing. Some do 1i intense set and grow. It all depends on what u feel comfortable with and how u feel. I personally like training once a week but the parts i see i need work 2 times per week. Shit im growing and im not even taking anything but food and protein at 220, more bigger and solid than when i was 200 last year with bulk.

[shortz]

Originally posted by stonecold54
not true at all. 10-12 days should be minimum.

You knew making this statement would get you drilled, right? :D

Well, you are right, and you are wrong. I think you know better than to make a general statement like you did. I know you are pretty knowledgable at training, so we'll discuss this one.

There are too many variables to say that recovery should be this or that. Metabolism, genetics, and most of all, diet and total volume. When I say total volume, I mean, are you counting movements that are not directly triceps too, or are you talking abiut direct tricep work? Triceps, being a smaller muscle, has a faster recvery time than the larger muscles. But, can easily be over trained. I believe that giving your tris more recovery times, like DC explains can do them wonders. For instance, only doing 3 sets of an exercise per session, but, working them every 3 days can be optimal. But, once you increase that volume, add in pressing and iso work, you need MUCH more time to recover.

[Stonecold54]

Originally posted by shortz
You knew making this statement would get you drilled, right? :D

Well, you are right, and you are wrong. I think you know better than to make a general statement like you did. I know you are pretty knowledgable at training, so we'll discuss this one.

There are too many variables to say that recovery should be this or that. Metabolism, genetics, and most of all, diet and total volume. When I say total volume, I mean, are you counting movements that are not directly triceps too, or are you talking abiut direct tricep work? Triceps, being a smaller muscle, has a faster recvery time than the larger muscles. But, can easily be over trained. I believe that giving your tris more recovery times, like DC explains can do them wonders. For instance, only doing 3 sets of an exercise per session, but, working them every 3 days can be optimal. But, once you increase that volume, add in pressing and iso work, you need MUCH more time to recover.

I make that statment referring to The Stress of Life by Hans Seyle Anyone interested in stress physiology and the endocrinology of stress (which Weightlifting is part of) should read this book. The bodies reaction to stress does not even RECOVER to normal for 2-3 days. So where does overtraining come from people ask? Right from here. If you train before you are recovered (not when you FEEL recovered) then you start digging a recovery hole. Explain to me how a smaller muscle group recovers faster? A muscle is still made up of the same fibers. The correct statement would be that a slow-twitch muscle recovers faster than a fast-twitch muscle. But that is only localized recovery...most people FORGET about general recovery. When you workout your triceps your BODY reacts as well as your triceps. And I didn't say it should be "This or that" I said it should be a minimum of 10 days. Even for people that train 1 muscle group per week they are already close to this with 7 days. So #1 10 days isn't much of a stretch and #2 most people would have the same or better results with less training which is a good thing since everytime you workout you stress your body.

[Mick]

Originally posted by Ace0419
The harder you train the more you have to rest for adequate recovery. Mick, do you train to failure or just until you get a burn?

I train until I'm a crumpled heap on the floor, seeing stars, and dizzy as hell.

Basically do my warm up sets, usually just with the barbell, just to get the blood flowing. Then some long hold stretches as I've tried without these and my elbow joints absolutely kill during the exercise (well, the ligaments connecting the tri to the elbow joint). Then it's onto the weights, getting heavier each set and putting that little more exertion into the set than I did for the last one (so as not to tire myself out before I reach the really heavy weights). Fourth set is my heart and soul, give it everything I've got, head ready to explode muscle shredder ;) Usually consists of 4-5 reps of the heaviest weight, and it's a killer. Totally focused, nothing else matters except getting that weight up, last rep takes a good few seconds, I'd say 8-9, the elation, the pain, the momentary high straight after which only lasts a couple of seconds, amazing feeling.

So, to answer your question, I train until I'm absolutely sure I couldn't have performed one single rep more, to complete failure in my own way.

[Mick]

Oh, and just to add to that. Trained my tris on Tuesday morning and they are still absolutely killing, but that besides the point, just wanted to let you know that they are back to their full self. Dunno what caused the deflation, dehydration maybe?

Anyway, let's keep this topic going, the points being raised are very ineteresting, and educational. It's good reading when people throw their opinions off of each other :)