??stronger without gaining size??

[mency11]

I"m a fighter and im trying to drop a weight class and lose about 20 pounds. I do plenty of cardio while i train but i haven't lifted weights in almost a year Im naturaly a stocky guy.

anyway i miss lifting so I was wondering if anyone could help me with advise on a routine i know i should be doing things like cleans and squats but i dont know how often or what sets and reps i should be doing to still allow me to lose weight but still gain strength
thanx

[Mick]

If you want to gain strength, then muscles will have to grow to be able to handle more strain/heavier weights etc. which in turn will increase your weight. The two go hand in hand. Bigger muscles are stronger and heavier than if they were smaller and weaker.

If you want to gain strength but keep the weight down, the only thing I can suggest is bringing your bf% down.

[Mr I]

Re: ??stronger without gaining size??

Originally posted by mency11
I"m a fighter and im trying to drop a weight class and lose about 20 pounds. I do plenty of cardio while i train but i haven't lifted weights in almost a year Im naturaly a stocky guy.

anyway i miss lifting so I was wondering if anyone could help me with advise on a routine i know i should be doing things like cleans and squats but i dont know how often or what sets and reps i should be doing to still allow me to lose weight but still gain strength
thanx

Your weight loss is going to come from cardoi (mostly boxing training, running etc) and diet; good protien sources.

Clearly you want to retain as much strength as possible while losing the weight. You don't want a big heavy bodybuilding trained type physique because you risk fatique to quick in a fight.
You want good strong fast twitch muscle fibres and excellent cardio ability.

The type of resistence training you need is circuit training; I'd stick to basic excercises; clean and press, squat, bench and pull ups. Yous should do these in circuit format performing one set of each for a timed excersion say 1 minute, rest one minute then move to the next. When you have performed all movements take a 3-5 minute break and do the same routine again 4 times.

When the principal workout is finished you can move to add some bicept barbell curls and stiff leg deadlifts at 3 sets each.

Try to do this twice a week only on top of your boxing routine and make sure you protien is low fat say chicken or egg whites and don't eat any shit. You'le need plenty of sleep to regenerate your muscles and don't be afraid of getting down plenty of carbs; brown rice, oats etc to help you get used to the increased work load and drink plenty of water throughout the day.

[Stonecold54]

There is NOT a direct correlation to size and strength. There are many factors that can lead the body to become stronger without gaining bigger muscle fibers. CNS effeciency is one of them which basically means that your body becomes "better" at doing a certain thing with practice. The body fights to put on more muscle as it is not a "normal" state. Your body likes to be in a homeostasis but with added muscle which is metabolically active your basal body temp rises which makes it work harder to cool down. That is just an example why your body does not want to put muscle on.

what type of fighter are you?

[shortz]

Originally posted by stonecold54
There is NOT a direct correlation to size and strength. There are many factors that can lead the body to become stronger without gaining bigger muscle fibers. CNS effeciency is one of them which basically means that your body becomes "better" at doing a certain thing with practice. The body fights to put on more muscle as it is not a "normal" state. Your body likes to be in a homeostasis but with added muscle which is metabolically active your basal body temp rises which makes it work harder to cool down. That is just an example why your body does not want to put muscle on.

what type of fighter are you?

Right.

Alot of weight control is diet though. There are many ways to train without growing alot.

[lordikon]

This is a newb-type question, so be gentle:

If muscle size is the only thing that determines strength, how is it that some smaller guys can lift more than I, and how can I sometimes lift more than bigger guys?

[Mr I]

Originally posted by lordikon
This is a newb-type question, so be gentle:

a) if muscle size is the only thing that determines strength, b)how is it that some smaller guys can lift more than I, and c) how can I sometimes lift more than bigger guys?

Answers;

a) It isn't

b) simple physics and kinetics, short levers equals less strain on the muscle inserts to the ligaments. Short guys should be stronger 'rebus sic stantibus'

c) When you say bigger I assume you mean bigger muscles but no taller?, many questions to ask yourself, is your from the same as theirs, if they are bodybuilders then ultimately their goal is to grow muscle not lift heavier so they are essentially making the movement as hard as possible on the muscle that they are training.

Otherwise, its down to how they have trained the muscle, diet-glycogen stores, genetice etc etc

[Stonecold54]

Originally posted by lordikon
This is a newb-type question, so be gentle:

If muscle size is the only thing that determines strength, how is it that some smaller guys can lift more than I, and how can I sometimes lift more than bigger guys?

mr. incredible hit on most of the points. just think of it this way. if one man has a 10 inch forearm bone and another man has an 11 inch forearm bone physics states that a short lever can have more demonstrative strength since the resistance is closer to the lever. BUT-the actual force achieved could be the same when you calculate out using all the known data so even if the 11inch forearm can only lift a 50 pound dumbbell and the 10inch forearm can lift a 60 pound dumbell they are producing the same amout of force (obviously those numbers are just examples).

[mency11]

thanks guys for the info!

Stone cold i fight mma (ufc style) and muay thai

[BJJ PitBull]

well what is the definition of strength? More importantly what is YOUR definition of strength?
For a guy who fights would rather want to be able to squat 500lbs x 5 or be able to do 500 bodywieght squats?
Which benefits a fighter more? Being able to push an insane amount of wieght for 5 reps, or being able to sustain a repetitive movement for 10 rounds?
Im not knocking powerlifters or fighters but you have to realize that if youre training for a sport then your training needs to be specific to that sport!
What action will you preform in a fight which resembles a squat?

Put a powerlifter in a ring or cage with a fighter and what will happen? we all know the answer to that b/c the powerlifter trains to lift big wieght for 1 rep.
Put a fighter under a bar loaded with 500lbs and tell him to squat it and whaty happens? He dies.

So im not dissing one or the other but just trying to point out that your training should be specific to your goals......you said you want to get stronger, well who is stronger the fighter who can do 500 bodywieght squats and 150 push ups w/o rest? Or the guy who can bp 600lbs, and squat 700lbs?
It all depends on your goals and for a fighter, strength shouldnt be measured by whats on the bar.

[Mr I]

Originally posted by BJJ PitBull
well what is the definition of strength? More importantly what is YOUR definition of strength?
For a guy who fights would rather want to be able to squat 500lbs x 5 or be able to do 500 bodywieght squats?
Which benefits a fighter more? Being able to push an insane amount of wieght for 5 reps, or being able to sustain a repetitive movement for 10 rounds?
Im not knocking powerlifters or fighters but you have to realize that if youre training for a sport then your training needs to be specific to that sport!
What action will you preform in a fight which resembles a squat?

Put a powerlifter in a ring or cage with a fighter and what will happen? we all know the answer to that b/c the powerlifter trains to lift big wieght for 1 rep.
Put a fighter under a bar loaded with 500lbs and tell him to squat it and whaty happens? He dies.

So im not dissing one or the other but just trying to point out that your training should be specific to your goals......you said you want to get stronger, well who is stronger the fighter who can do 500 bodywieght squats and 150 push ups w/o rest? Or the guy who can bp 600lbs, and squat 700lbs?
It all depends on your goals and for a fighter, strength shouldnt be measured by whats on the bar.

True in principal, BUT;

you seem to be suggesting that weightlifting has no place to the fighter. If thats the case then why did Evander Holyfield ask Lee Haney to help him put on muscular weight and strength before his first fight with Tyson?

If you look at modern day boxers, admitedly more so in the case of the heavyweights, its clear to most people that they weight train.

[BJJ PitBull]

Originally posted by Mr incredible
True in principal, BUT;

you seem to be suggesting that weightlifting has no place to the fighter. If thats the case then why did Evander Holyfield ask Lee Haney to help him put on muscular weight and strength before his first fight with Tyson?

If you look at modern day boxers, admitedly more so in the case of the heavyweights, its clear to most people that they weight train.

yes, b/c Holyfield wasnt a natural heavywieght so his goal was to put on size, and for his goal (gain wieght and strength) lifting with Lee Haney was the solution, BUT this guy who posted wants to gain strength w/o gaining weight.

Im not saying that weight lifting has no place to the fighter. I believe that body wieght workouts should be the bread and butter of a fighters workout but also believe in a good harmony of both worlds. I doubt that Holyfield trained like a BB'r. Lee Haney knows a thing or two about fitness and just b/c he was Mr. Olympia doesnt mean he only knows how to lift like a BB'r. So just b/c Holyfield worked out with Haney doesnt mean Haney had him doing the same routines that he himself did.

Its just different goals is all,
the powerlifter wants to lift the most wieght for one time and doesnt care whether he looks like a bear or a work of art Greek God,
the BB'r wants to build big muscles and look impressive the Olympia isnt given to who is the strongest but to who has the best physique,
the fighter wants to be able to fight at max preformance for extended periods of time and be able to throw punches just as fast and powerfull in the 10th round as they were in the 1st round.
Each has different goals so why would they all train the same way? Wieghts can be a great asset to the fighter but not if you use them in the traditional manner like a BP, or curl.......a fighter should do excercises that mimick a specific action commonly preformed in a fight, like throwing an uppercut.....take a dumbell and hold it by your side, palms up and elbows bent at 90 degrees, then throw that arm up in front of you until and extend all the way up until your arm is straight up. You are working through the full motion of an uppercut minus foot work. This conditions the specific muscles in the specific sequence they are used in the competition youre training for. What good does a 500 lb BP do you? At what time during a fight do you preform a movement that resembles anything close to a BP? Not saying dont do it as part of your routine but i AM saying why would you guage your strength toward your sport by what is on the bar during a BP or squat? Youre not gonna BP or squat in your fight, you are gonna preform a high volume of repetitive movements and you need to train your muscles to meet the demand.
Who cares if you can squat 500 lbs 8 times? See what good that does you in round 8.
High repetitive body wieght squats and sprints will teach your body to deal with the lactic acid build up.......doing 8 reps of high wieght will teach your body to give in to the lactic acid build up after 8 reps.

[shortz]

Weight training isn't always about building endurance though, even for fighters. There are things a fighter can do to build that endurance, but the entire weight lifting experience doesn't have to be such and such a movement for 500 reps. It can still be in the 12 rep range and benefit.

Personally, I thikn a great routine for a fighter could be simply GPP type training in which you move a greater amount of weight in a shorter period of time. You can still hit 10 reps, but take very short rest periods to accomplish both strength and endurance.

[Mr I]

I generall agree with your points but;


[QUOTE]Originally posted by BJJ PitBull
yes, b/c Holyfield wasnt a natural heavywieght so his goal was to put on size, and for his goal (gain wieght and strength) lifting with Lee Haney was the solution, BUT this guy who posted wants to gain strength w/o gaining weight.[QUOTE][

True which I why I think he should do circuit type training with compound movements

[QUOTE][
Im not saying that weight lifting has no place to the fighter. I believe that body wieght workouts should be the bread and butter of a fighters workout but also believe in a good harmony of both worlds. I doubt that Holyfield trained like a BB'r. [QUOTE][

He did put on muscular weight and strength, which to me is what bodybuilding is

[QUOTE][Lee Haney knows a thing or two about fitness and just b/c he was Mr. Olympia doesnt mean he only knows how to lift like a BB'r. So just b/c Holyfield worked out with Haney doesnt mean Haney had him doing the same routines that he himself did.
[QUOTE][

Definately agree, but there must have been some fundamental bodybuilding principles in there otherwise how did he get bigger and stronger?

[QUOTE][
Its just different goals is all,
the powerlifter wants to lift the most wieght for one time and doesnt care whether he looks like a bear or a work of art Greek God,
the BB'r wants to build big muscles and look impressive the Olympia isnt given to who is the strongest but to who has the best physique,[QUOTE][

Again true, but the two are intertwined or else why does Ronny Coleman use massive squats and deadlifts in his workouts?

[QUOTE][
the fighter wants to be able to fight at max preformance for extended periods of time and be able to throw punches just as fast and powerfull in the 10th round as they were in the 1st round.
Each has different goals so why would they all train the same way? Wieghts can be a great asset to the fighter but not if you use them in the traditional manner like a BP, or curl.[QUOTE]
see next comment

[QUOTE][
[......a fighter should do excercises that mimick a specific action commonly preformed in a fight, like throwing an uppercut.....take a dumbell and hold it by your side, palms up and elbows bent at 90 degrees, then throw that arm up in front of you until and extend all the way up until your arm is straight up. You are working through the full motion of an uppercut minus foot work. This conditions the specific muscles in the specific sequence they are used in the competition youre training for. [QUOTE][

Sounds like a curl to me pretty much?

[QUOTE][
What good does a 500 lb BP do you? At what time during a fight do you preform a movement that resembles anything close to a BP? [QUOTE][

Er when you throw a punch, isn't that what boxers do????

[
Not saying dont do it as part of your routine but i AM saying why would you guage your strength toward your sport by what is on the bar during a BP or squat? Youre not gonna BP or squat in your fight, you are gonna preform a high volume of repetitive movements and you need to train your muscles to meet the demand.
Who cares if you can squat 500 lbs 8 times? See what good that does you in round 8.
High repetitive body wieght squats and sprints will teach your body to deal with the lactic acid build up.......doing 8 reps of high wieght will teach your body to give in to the lactic acid build up after 8 reps.

Agreed but squatting heavy (not neccassarily 1 rep max or even 8 reps more like 15 -20 reps,does require a good core strength and balance which are a must during a fight and a good squater would have good centre of gravity and with the right foot placement would be hard to shove or knock off balance IMO.

[BJJ PitBull]

yea i agree with your circuit training idea.....the only thing i wanna talk about is this...

The excercise i described is nothing like a curl though, it starts as a half curl and ends as a reverse shoulder press movement more then anythin.....see with a curl, your elbow is the axis and you start with your arm at a 180 degree, completely straight with your elbow being the axis, then your elbow stays stationary and you close the degree from 180 to 90 to about a 20 degree angle......your elbow never leaves your side.

The excercise i described was to be started with your elbow at your side starting from the 90 angle, the you push the wieght (with shoulders/triceps mostly) up infront and over your head until your elbow is almost at a 180 degree angle.......your shoulder is the used to push the wieght not the bicep.

And how does a punch resemble a bench press? Just b/c the pectorals, tris, delts are involved in a punch and also in the bench press doesnt make the two movements similar, and doesnt mean the 2 benefit each other either. If someone has the strongest punch in boxing does that mean he can bench more then anyone in boxing? Or if someone can bench 400lbs, does that mean he can punch harder then the guy who cant bench as much?
See when you punch, you are useing certain muscles in a particular and very specific sequence. Its not just as simple as strengthening each of the muscles invovled in a punch individualy, you need to strengthen them together and train them to work hand in hand to preform one motion. In BBing you can isolate each muscle to make it grow, but in fighting you dont want each muscle to be strong by itself, you want it to be strong with its counter parts, and in the BP you cant even fully use all the muscles required to push the wieght! Your lats and shoulder blades are used in a BP but they are pinned to a back board and cannot fully be utilized because of it.

Wanna know something interesting? Tra Telligman is a member of Ken Shamrocks Lions Den (or whats left of it) this dude fights top level MMA and has beat some big names and put up a VERY good fight against Pedro Rizzo not too long ago (i think a year or two ago), and Pedro was once one of the most respected punchers in MMA!!! The interesting thing though is that Tra Telligman does not have one of his pecs! It was removed when he was a child due to some car accident or something.....so you dont even need a pectoral muscle to fight top level MMA!!! That puts a different perspective on people useing bench press to improve punching power.