Moving over to AS

[Pumpdogg]

Originally posted by therock
Actually, I think all of you except house are wrong. But dont take it to offense either. Bro 1st off how old are you? Also have you been doing the same workouts all the time? Have you been working out both fast and slow twitched muscle fibers? Also post a you diet as most people that jump into gear actually shouldnt and the diet is what is making them plateau. You need to also utilize (spelling) Nutrient Timing. Meaning are you intaking protien and carbs 10min prior to workout,during, and a shit load immediatly after. Also are you intaking a small carb meal with high protien 1-2hrs after workout? If you answered no to any of these questions then gear is not the choice for you. If you answered yes to all these questions then its time to gear up. But be honest with yourself bro, dont lie to yourself thats the worst thing you can do in bodybuilding. If you are not doing Nutrient Timing then you are not utilizing your natural insulin and therefore are at plateau. Trust me if you can avoid gear do it. If anyone tells you that you shouldnt wait and just do it then they are the stupidist BB on the planet cause all smart ones will tell you to wait until you reach your full potential and chances are you havent. But if you do decide to run gear do it like house said, but I would even go lower to 250mgs a week for 12wks. Reason being (and I have said this in plenty threads before) your body produces 49mgs a week at max of test. So this means you are adding 201mgs of test which is way more then enough to gain 15-35lbs depending on diet, because diet is 85% w/o it you aint got shit. Good luck and let me know the answers to all your questions bro so I can help you make the right choice.

I pretty much said the same thing as house too. Hell I even told him house had laid down the rest for him.

As for dosage, you will NEVER have a better cycle as far as gains and body comp usally as your first. Therefore IMO 300-500mg/wk would be better than a 1 shot a week of 250. The half life of test enathate is like 5-7 days so he would be better off pinning twice a week and if he can handle the higher dose without lots of sides he WILL grow more than he would at 1 shot of 250. We all know when you up the dose you up the gains, not meaning that 500 will give twice the gains of 250 only that dosage is relevant to gains.

PD

[Shibby]

Originally posted by therock
Bro how many grams of protien and carbs do you drink b4 and after your workout? Also when you are working out if you cant down protien and carbs just at least make sure to get a high-glycemic carb drink w/o protien and just sip on it like if it was Powerade. That shouldnt upset your stomach. Also are you using glutamine after you workout? If so how many grams do you intake?

I can't drink anything but water during my workouts. If you consume the right stuff prior to working out then you just need to make sure you post workout meal is adequate. Most stuff you consume during a work out won't be converted into energy by the time you are done. I don't know how true this to be, but my thought would be just put maltodextrin in water and sip on it so it has to do the least amount of conversion.

[Mick]

Originally posted by therock
Bro how many grams of protien and carbs do you drink b4 and after your workout? Also when you are working out if you cant down protien and carbs just at least make sure to get a high-glycemic carb drink w/o protien and just sip on it like if it was Powerade. That shouldnt upset your stomach. Also are you using glutamine after you workout? If so how many grams do you intake?

Before the workout I use my own maximuscle promax with 24.9 grams of protein and 2.04 grams of carbs and after I use the gyms title megatein with 33.0 grams of protein and 1.86 grams of carbs. As for Glutamine, my budget is pretty much stretched to the limit with food and other supplements. The Promax contains Glutamine though, one of the reasons I chose it.

[Mick]

Just looking at the other products, I could possibly spend an extra £15 a time (around $25) and go for the progain, that has 50grams of complex carbs per serving and 33 grams of protein, also contains Taurin and Glutamine like the promax.

[GreekTank]

You're on the right track bro, you have a head on your shoulders

[uridium245]

Hey GreenTank,

I can't speak for Bench, but I can tell you that I used Swales HCG protocol on my last two cycles (250 iu twice a week). One was a 10 week cycle, the other 15 weeks. Using the good doctors (MD/HRT) protocol resulted in NO testicular shrinkage and the smoothest PCT imaginable. Zero changes in sex drive during PCT. I lost 2 lbs in the first week of PCT and gained 3 lbs in the following 3 weeks.

Swales idea is that if you keep the leydig cells stimulated it will take less time for the family jewels to return to normal. Here it is in his own words.

SWALE

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other methods.

[therock]

Originally posted by Mick
Before the workout I use my own maximuscle promax with 24.9 grams of protein and 2.04 grams of carbs and after I use the gyms title megatein with 33.0 grams of protein and 1.86 grams of carbs. As for Glutamine, my budget is pretty much stretched to the limit with food and other supplements. The Promax contains Glutamine though, one of the reasons I chose it.

Even if you are cutting bro you need more carbs pre,during, and post workout bro. Your ratio should be 3:1 meaning 3 carbs to every gram of protien postworkout. (High glycemic carbs)

[therock]

Also my bad bros to anyone that I said was wrong. Yall are right they were opinions and I just disagreed w/ them and none of us are right or wrong. But when I tell someone 250mgs a week I mean divide it in between 2 shots. I know that the 1st cycle is when your receptors are most sensitive to aas, but also IMO I think this is the time to not give it to much and learn how your body reacts to a low dose and what foods work. If you have too much aas your 1st time you will grow no matter what you eat aslong as its enough food but you still wont know what foods you really need to grow lean muscle, rather then 50% water retention. Also you wont have to rely on so much gear in your later cycles. Like for ex. my buddy is on his 5th cycle and he takes 1g of test and I take around 500-700mgs and we get about the same gains. Just my thoery and I appoligize to yall cause yall are like bros to me and I dont want to have conflicts between us cause we all have to stick together. Let me know if yall except my appoligy. (spelling).

[BENCH355ANIMAL]

Originally posted by uridium245
Hey GreenTank,

I can't speak for Bench, but I can tell you that I used Swales HCG protocol on my last two cycles (250 iu twice a week). One was a 10 week cycle, the other 15 weeks. Using the good doctors (MD/HRT) protocol resulted in NO testicular shrinkage and the smoothest PCT imaginable. Zero changes in sex drive during PCT. I lost 2 lbs in the first week of PCT and gained 3 lbs in the following 3 weeks.

Swales idea is that if you keep the leydig cells stimulated it will take less time for the family jewels to return to normal. Here it is in his own words.

SWALE

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other methods.

:agree: I gained 46 lbs. on my cycle of sustanon/tren, been off now for a month, and only lost 9lbs. My strength is still the same on all my lifts, and my sex drive never lapsed during pct. I believe Skyfire is who advised me to use the HCG in this method, and thanks to him for that!!

[ROCKETW19]

Originally posted by therock
Also my bad bros to anyone that I said was wrong. Yall are right they were opinions and I just disagreed w/ them and none of us are right or wrong. But when I tell someone 250mgs a week I mean divide it in between 2 shots. I know that the 1st cycle is when your receptors are most sensitive to aas, but also IMO I think this is the time to not give it to much and learn how your body reacts to a low dose and what foods work. If you have too much aas your 1st time you will grow no matter what you eat aslong as its enough food but you still wont know what foods you really need to grow lean muscle, rather then 50% water retention. Also you wont have to rely on so much gear in your later cycles. Like for ex. my buddy is on his 5th cycle and he takes 1g of test and I take around 500-700mgs and we get about the same gains. Just my thoery and I appoligize to yall cause yall are like bros to me and I dont want to have conflicts between us cause we all have to stick together. Let me know if yall except my appoligy. (spelling).

yep we are bros dont trip!

[ROCKETW19]

Originally posted by BENCH355ANIMAL
:agree: I gained 46 lbs. on my cycle of sustanon/tren, been off now for a month, and only lost 9lbs. My strength is still the same on all my lifts, and my sex drive never lapsed during pct. I believe Skyfire is who advised me to use the HCG in this method, and thanks to him for that!!

46lbs shit thats great bro! skyfire told me the same thing witch im gonna use this cycle i just started!

[therock]

Originally posted by BENCH355ANIMAL
:agree: I gained 46 lbs. on my cycle of sustanon/tren, been off now for a month, and only lost 9lbs. My strength is still the same on all my lifts, and my sex drive never lapsed during pct. I believe Skyfire is who advised me to use the HCG in this method, and thanks to him for that!!

How much do you weigh now? Also who is that on your avatar?

[Pumpdogg]

Let me know if yall except my appoligy <posted by Rock> Its all gravy Rock.

PD

[BENCH355ANIMAL]

Originally posted by therock
How much do you weigh now? Also who is that on your avatar?

As of this morning I weigh 246 lbs. @ 5'11", and a 34" waist. My cycle ended on February 5th. BF% comes up between 7.5 & 9% on my digital calipers, and I always add 3%, so I'm omewhere around 10.5-12% BF.

That fine ass in my picture is just some girl in the " I See Booty" thread. Nice huh.:hitit:

[GreekTank]

Originally posted by uridium245
Hey GreenTank,

I can't speak for Bench, but I can tell you that I used Swales HCG protocol on my last two cycles (250 iu twice a week). One was a 10 week cycle, the other 15 weeks. Using the good doctors (MD/HRT) protocol resulted in NO testicular shrinkage and the smoothest PCT imaginable. Zero changes in sex drive during PCT. I lost 2 lbs in the first week of PCT and gained 3 lbs in the following 3 weeks.

Swales idea is that if you keep the leydig cells stimulated it will take less time for the family jewels to return to normal. Here it is in his own words.

SWALE

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other methods.

Thanks for the help bro!