They call him Flipper - Kerry

[GearTripper]

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[Bouncer]

Well that dosent look to good as we see it for kerry. But in his defence, if you take clips like that of Bush from the last 10 years just like they did of kerry I would bet that you could find some "flip-flopping" and other types of moronic behavior from bush. Views change over years when the the situation in the world has changed. I know alot of what I thought in 1998, I have different thoughts on now. Just making the point that it is easy to make a public figure look bad when there are thousands of recordings on TV. Especially when they are under fire from a reporter. Its easy to say dumb things sometimes, just ask Bush.. :P

[Gongshow]

the one reason im voting for bush...the guy makes up his mind...and does what he thinks is right, he dont care who he pisses off, and has shown terrorists not to fuck with us. Kerry, on the other hand...who knows)

[MuGGsy]

I hate politics.

[comsquat]

What if he made up his mind to send your loved ones to the wrong fucking place for the wrong reason. If your in agreement why are you here and not there. Fucking Charles Manson made up his mind as well. He like Bush also was coward enough to stay the fuck away. Your voting and reasoning habits need some serious introspection. There are thousand of DEAD people including women and children for fucking nothing. NOTHING get it. If your so much in favor of his decisions even if wrong head on over.

[GearTripper]

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[GearTripper]

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[spidey]

Originally posted by comsquat
What if he made up his mind to send your loved ones to the wrong fucking place for the wrong reason. If your in agreement why are you here and not there. Fucking Charles Manson made up his mind as well. He like Bush also was coward enough to stay the fuck away. Your voting and reasoning habits need some serious introspection. There are thousand of DEAD people including women and children for fucking nothing. NOTHING get it. If your so much in favor of his decisions even if wrong head on over.

Calm down man. This post is EXACTLY the reason many of us don't like discussing politics. People get too bent out of shape over it.

I must say though that yours is the reasoning that needs introspection. We have accomplished a great deal in both Afganistan and Iraq. More schools are open now than were open before the invasion. More people have electricity and running water than before. Many Iraqis are genuinely happy we are there. More than 20 million people will have the opportunity to vote on a representative government for the first time next year. To say they don't matter is an insult to them. All the trouble is coming from 2 or 3 places where as like 85% of the country is not that way.

You say 1000 dead like that is how many were actually killed in action. More than half of the dead are due to accidents or natural causes. Many of the dead would still be dead today if we hadn't invaded. Considering we have 130000 people over there, people killed in action represent about 0.4%. Did you think anyone could conduct a war with no casualties? It is sad when ever we lose a soldier but a 0.4% casualty rate is extremely low and these soldiers knew what they were signing up for. Compare that with Vietnam where we were losing 1000 people a week for some period of time!

I have a nephew in Fallujah right now. He knew what he was doing when he joined up. He realizes he could come back in a body bag. He still joined up though. We owe people like him everything we have. I tried to join up myself but couldn't (too old :rolleyes:.

I disagree that we went over for the wrong reason. There is a lot of evidence popping up that Sadam DID have viable WMD's and tons of stuff was shipped over the border to Siria in the weeks leading up to the invasion. The story about Sadam trying to buy Uranium from Niger has proven to be true?

Another big reason for invading Iraq was to establish a western style democracy in the middle east. One that incidently borders Iran, the worlds foremost sponser of terrorism. A friendly government in Iraq gives us an opportunity to set up a base right next door to keep tabs on them.

There is a lot more I could say but I'm tired of talking politics. Let's just agree to disagree. You vote for whomever you want in November and I will do the same.

[sana]

Originally posted by spidey

I have a nephew in Fallujah right now. He knew what he was doing when he joined up. He realizes he could come back in a body bag. He still joined up though. We owe people like him everything we have. I tried to join up myself but couldn't (too old :rolleyes:.

tell your nephew thank you from all of us here.

[spidey]

Originally posted by sana
tell your nephew thank you from all of us here.

That's sweet. I will do that. I am sure he would appreciate it.

[comsquat]

Originally posted by spidey

I must say though that yours is the reasoning that needs introspection. We have accomplished a great deal in both Afganistan and Iraq. More schools are open now than were open before the invasion. More people have electricity and running water than before. Many Iraqis are genuinely happy we are there. More than 20 million people will have the opportunity to vote on a representative government for the first time next year. To say they don't matter is an insult to them. All the trouble is coming from 2 or 3 places where as like 85% of the country is not that way.

You say 1000 dead like that is how many were actually killed in action. More than half of the dead are due to accidents or natural causes. Many of the dead would still be dead today if we hadn't invaded. Considering we have 130000 people over there, people killed in action represent about 0.4%. Did you think anyone could conduct a war with no casualties? It is sad when ever we lose a soldier but a 0.4% casualty rate is extremely low and these soldiers knew what they were signing up for. Compare that with Vietnam where we were losing 1000 people a week for some period of time!

In response to the 1000 dead comment and those being dead today and more than half dead from accidents.
U.S. Dead 980
U.S. Wounded 6916
Iraqi Civilians Dead 11781
Iraqi Military Dead 4895
Coalition Dead 127

Now in a calm voice Spidey I ask you. What legit reason was had PRIOR to all of this to accept these numbers. By the way as of today the cost of the war and rebuilding is 200 BILLION MINIMUM. Or 700.00 for every currently living U.S. citizen.

Please also remember 700,000 mostly Iraqi children died due to OUR sanctions.

Do not get me wrong. This is not a Kerry endorsement. Its a observation/comment based on the gut instinct that something stinks here. I don't like to be lied to about shit that has this type of consequence. I pay the price in citizenship, taxes and prior wartime military service enlisted to say this. I am not saying those who have not served have ANY less commitment or ownership in this.

In my mind Bush is a fucking coward based on his response to service when they called. Because he wanted to make his daddy whole, create opportunities for his largest contributors and business associates and whatever elase was going through his pea brain he took us to war.

Let me make one thing very clear. Look at the demographics of the military and you will see immediately why they signed up. Sorry Spidey, they did not know what they were getting into. You said you tried to sign up but were denied due to age which means your older than 36. Did they walk you out in the parking lot and fire live ammo at you. Can you say a kid would understand what it takes to get to the NOC by sitting down and watching a 30 minute video and talking to a BBer for a hour.

They are young with few options and easily duped for the majority.

I appreciate the agreements and disagreements on this board. Passion is part of who many of us here are all about so please don't take anything away from it than respect.

[Racer814]

terrorism will not go away on it's own...these arent nice people who just want to be left alone..they seek our total destruction...now I'm sorry anyone has to die in war and I have two boys who could likely see military action one day if things continue this way...I dont want that, but ignoring the problem will only make it worse...people who join the armed forces are MILITARY...they FIGHT for this country and I am very proud of them...if someone does not want to take the chance they could be called into combat to protect this country...then dont join the military..and make no mistake about it...our military is protecting our future whenever and wherever they they fight terrorism...I'll vote for Bush

[spidey]

Amen

[Bouncer]

Would bush have gone over to Iraq? If his 2 daughters where male and there was a draft do you think they would be made to go? Im not saying that he as a president has made the right or wrong calls, im just asking what you guys think. He may be a "go-getter" like some of you say but if he was on the front lines I bet he wouldnt be such a "go getter".

I was visiting my grandfather grave last weekend. He is burried in a Cemetary for Veterans of War because he fought in WW2 and the korean war. Anyway, there were about 25 new plots since my grandfather died 6 month ago and 2 of the plots were from people killed in Iraq. One of them read, 1985-2004 Killed in Action, Purple Heart. This child was 18 and he is laying 6 feet under. No parent should have to go threw that.

Again, im not saying anyone is right or wrong, im just talking out loud.

[spidey]

Originally posted by comsquat
In response to the 1000 dead comment and those being dead today and more than half dead from accidents.
U.S. Dead 980
U.S. Wounded 6916
Iraqi Civilians Dead 11781
Iraqi Military Dead 4895
Coalition Dead 127

Now in a calm voice Spidey I ask you. What legit reason was had PRIOR to all of this to accept these numbers. By the way as of today the cost of the war and rebuilding is 200 BILLION MINIMUM. Or 700.00 for every currently living U.S. citizen.

Please also remember 700,000 mostly Iraqi children died due to OUR sanctions.

Do not get me wrong. This is not a Kerry endorsement. Its a observation/comment based on the gut instinct that something stinks here. I don't like to be lied to about shit that has this type of consequence. I pay the price in citizenship, taxes and prior wartime military service enlisted to say this. I am not saying those who have not served have ANY less commitment or ownership in this.

In my mind Bush is a fucking coward based on his response to service when they called. Because he wanted to make his daddy whole, create opportunities for his largest contributors and business associates and whatever elase was going through his pea brain he took us to war.

Let me make one thing very clear. Look at the demographics of the military and you will see immediately why they signed up. Sorry Spidey, they did not know what they were getting into. You said you tried to sign up but were denied due to age which means your older than 36. Did they walk you out in the parking lot and fire live ammo at you. Can you say a kid would understand what it takes to get to the NOC by sitting down and watching a 30 minute video and talking to a BBer for a hour.

They are young with few options and easily duped for the majority.

I appreciate the agreements and disagreements on this board. Passion is part of who many of us here are all about so please don't take anything away from it than respect.

Yes, 980 total dead. However, more than half died from accidents and natural causes like heart attacks.

Excuse me if I don't shed many tears for the dead Iraqi military. They were the enemy after all.

Collateral damage is inevitable in any war. This is just a fact. We have done all we could to minimize civilian casualties. Tell me; what were we supposed to do when faced with a threat that the entire world aknowledged (including France, Germany, the UN, Kerry, Edwards, and nearly everyone else besides perhaps Howard Dean)? True, much of our intelligence (and that of the rest of the world as well) was faulty but that doesn't change the fact that everyone believed there was a threat. If you are going to let the inevitability of collateral damage decide whether or not we will go to war to defend ourselves, then we would never do so. We would have been conquered long before now. War is ugly; it is vicious and no one likes to see it. It is the only way to defend our nation against aggressors though.

You sound as if you think even the sanctions (imposed by not only the US but every other nation in the civilized world) were wrong. How do you stop rougue nations from running roughshod over everyone else if you are not willing to use either diplomatic (sanctions) or military force? Where do you think Sadam's weapons programs would have been without the sanctions? Where would Kuwait be without the world's intervention? Is it not more wrong to allow a despot to invade his neighbor, inflicting death, rape and chaos on the populous than to use force to stop it even if some innocent people got hurt and killed? How many innocents would have been hurt or killed if we had allowed it to happen? For that matter, how many innocents in Iraq would Sadam have killed, raped, and tortured had we not removed him? Yes, we have accidently killed many innocents but Sadam killed literally hundreds of thousands and maimed and raped tens of thousands more. The world so quickly forgets the mass graves and rape rooms of his regime.

I also don't agree that Bush is a coward. A coward could not have withstood the immense pressure to back away from our course of action from not only other countries but a large contingent of the left in our own country. He served in the National Guard and records show he was NOT AWOL like Moore and some others contend. We have National Guard troops serving in Iraq and Afganistan now. Will you denigrate their service because they are not "regular army"? They are risking their lives just as much. Kerry served honorably as well (the records show). I will not attack him on his service and I think it is dishonorable to attack Bush on his as well. It is funny how I never heard the lefties attacking Clinton on his lack of service during the Vietnam era but somehow they feel justified in attacking Bush's service. I never heard the lefties label Clinton as a coward.

How is it that you assume Bush lied about our reasons for invading Iraq? Every nation on the UN Security Council saw the same intelligence and reached the same conclusion, even France. The resolution was UNANIMOUS that Sadam must disarm or face "serious consequences". What do you think those consequences were going to be? Maybe we were supposed to put him in time out or something? Kerry, Edwards, and the majority of both parties in congress saw the same intelligence and reached the same conclusion as Bush when they authorized the use of force. How is it that two parties can see the same intelligence; reach the same conclusions but one of them is lying and the other is lied to? That doesn't even make sense. The simple truth is that our intelligence (and that of the rest of the world) was faulty. You can't feed a president bad information and then say he lied when it turns out to have been mistaken.

I totally disagree with you about our soldiers not knowing what they were in for. These aren't starry eyed little kids. These are 18 to 23 yr old young men who are fully aware they are going to be shot at and some of them will be killed. Please don't insult them by claiming otherwise. My nephew was 19 when he joined up last year. He knew he was signing up during a war and he would be going over to fight. He was home just a few months ago after spending some time stationed in the the Philipines conducting jungle warfare against Abu Sayef terrorists. He couldn't wait to get back to his unit. They were supposed to ship out for Falujah around the end of June but it was delayed for some time. He knows what he is in for. The other men and women in his unit know what they are in for.