The Debate Last Night!

[DangerousGround]

his best debate

[Primal Instinct]

Originally posted by kohe0011
In my opinion Kerry offered no new plans for our future except that he is a different person than Bush and our allies will be more agreable. You cannot name any specifics about how he would do things differently because he didn't name them. Just repeated the phrase line "I have a four point plan." Oh... he's going to get the help of France, Germany, and Russia because without the bribed and coherced, we can't hava a coalition. That's right. The only reason they did not support the war was because they were padding their pockets with money from the oil for food program. Why is it only considered a multi-national coaliton if we included them? What because of the size of their population? So the smaller 30 or something countries don't count? That would be like saying what the crazy people want in California should apply to the midwest and east coast becuase they're larger than most states. I would never put the European's interests above our own. Global test my ass. These counties have already stated that they are not going to add troops to the cause even if Kerry were to win the election. Well that doesn't leave Kerry with many choices than does it?

There is never anything written in stone, especially in foreign policy and relations. These countries won't provide troops or other measures of support to the US right now because Bush excluded them from the bidding process in the rebuilding of Iraq's infrastructure. Would you send troops and money to aid a country that the US is (for all intensive purposes) running and having much difficulty maintaining order there? Fuck no. So what do you do to entice them into helping? You bring them in on the rebuild contracts and give them a stake in Iraq's future as well. Bush refused to do so, even while he rebuked other nations. Sure, Russia France and others didn't want to lose their investments in Iraq under Saddam but they may still have helped if Bush didn't announce that all debts owed to any nations by Iraq would be forgiven. Think about the enormity of that proclaimation for a minute...basically, Bush said you don't owe France 6 billion anymore or Russia whatever they were owed. Would you want to cooperate with an asshole like that?


Sure, send us your troops and money but we will give you no rebuild contracts or say in the future of Iraq, climb aboard!! The US would never enter into such a situation because we would gain nothing from it. Don't fool yourself into believing that the US is there in Iraq to free oppressed Iraqis. We as a nation, are just as self-serving as any other nation. If we don't gain from an endeavor we will not commit money or troops there, period.


Where is the US when there is genocide going on in Sudan? Where was the US when Ruwanda was experiencing genocide from the civil war there? NOWHERE. They offer us nothing in return for our investment. This high and mighty shit makes me sick. It's all relative to what side of the issue that you are on.




EDIT-

For those of you who think Russia, France and others who secretly traded with Iraq during the sanctions period were back stabbing shitheads, you're right but they are not the only ones who have done so.


I just wanted to add that while I don't agree on secret trading with a nation that's supposed to be under sanctions, the US is no angel here either. Under Ronald Reagan, we secretly traded military weaponry for American hostages while Iran was under UN & US sanctions. Then the US took the money from the illegal arms sales and diverted it to Nicaraugua to fund an illegal war there to overthrow the elected government. Talk about standing on the moral high ground... Throughout this period of time Reagan declared publically that "the US will not negotiate with terrorists."


Furthermore, during the Iran-Iraq War, the US sold military weaponry and provided intelligence and logistics to both parties. Halliburton's subsidiary, Dresser Industries has been providing Iraq with oilfield equipment throughout the entire era of Saddam's invasion of Kuwait until his overthrow. We need all of the pertinent info if we're going to come down on one party or another. Things like I mentioned above ARE the way of the modern (and ancient) world. Just don't be suprised when someone counters an arguement about how pious the US is in its endeavors. We don't like or want to see or haer the ugly truth about what our government does from time to time but we're quick to jump on the bandwagon against other nations when they do the same things. This is why the world views us as hypocrites. It's the do as we say, not as we do syndrome.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by bigchub22
HAVE A NICE LIFE PAL

thanks bro, you do the same. :)

[wyst]

Nice post, Primal. That's the thing about the Bush message: it leaves out little details like that. You won't hear many of these facts if you just watch the All Spin Zone (Fox).

[4seasons]

Originally posted by bigchub22
Kerry is a moron and always will be ....last time i checked public speaking doesnt make you a good president the job you do and the actions you take however do and as far as im concerned he is doing a fine job and kerry can suck my dick i am in the military and so therefore i have more contact with military members then he probably does and i can tell you we cant stand him and i can also tell you that those of us who have been over there that i know at least are not upset with bush and his plan. Also you say kerry laid out a plan BS all he said was i have a plan i have a plan i have a plan well what the fuck is it. Last he scares me that he thinks bilateral talks and agreements with korea is the way to go and leaving china out of this no fucking way kerry. How can i sit here and vote for a republican like him you ask very very easy he is a stern strong president with a plan and STICKS to it not change is mind and position every 2 secs like kerry in the beginning of the debate kerry said iran was not a threat later he said iran was a threat hmmmm having trouble making up your mind go figure get a clue kerry is a moron and better say your hailmarys if he gets elected. By the way the small percentage of military that says bush's plan is scary and i want kerry are the ones who joined for a free college education guess what you get that by serving and doing a noble duty not by sitting on your ass for 4 years we go to war we fight for a cause we fight for generations to come so they can have a better life im sticking with the man that has a plan i have already seen and one who i already know what he is gonna do not one that cant even decide what to eat for breakfast fuck kerry......no disrespect to those with other opinions but those are my opinions and i could ramble on and one with facts about the rat kerry is but that would take hours that i dont have right now GOODNIGHT

I couldn't agree with you more Chub, I think Kerry is living in a fantisy world, easier said then done. All I have to say is Kerry is a Fairy, LOL.

[kohe0011]

I agree that all or most nations are self serving such the United States and we should be. Look out for number one first and then see what you can do to help others with your extra resources. Why should we have let them bid on contracts when they provided no help in the form of money or humanitarian aid after the major combat had ended. As for the Sudan, what country is leading the way to stop this terrible tragedy. It happened and wasn't prevented and that is unfortunate but it is the United States that is leading the way on helping the situation and giving the most resources i.e cash, and aid. I'm sure someone will argue that we are there for self serving purposes as well, but at least we are doing more than others. There will always be a way to support the facts one way or the other and we each need to pick which side we identify with.

[Primal Instinct]

Originally posted by kohe0011
I agree that all or most nations are self serving such the United States and we should be. Look out for number one first and then see what you can do to help others with your extra resources. Why should we have let them bid on contracts when they provided no help in the form of money or humanitarian aid after the major combat had ended.

The problem with this statement is that major conflict has not ended. This is clearly evident everyday you turn on the TV. We deposed a murderous meglomaniac and left a vaccuum of power where the should be a strong centralized government. Obviously, Iraq can't just start out strong but it needed more than what the US offered in the way of security. It is a moronic arguement for Bush to say that because we are fighting terrorists over there they are not fighting them over here. I have some news for them; the 9/11 terrorists were ALREADY HERE before any of that. Some of them entered the US under valid visas and some entered under stolen identities. The fact of the matter is that just because we haven't been attacked since 9/11/01 doesn't mean that our security plan is working. It is pure folly to fall into that line of thinking. It was 7 years between the first WTC bombing and the tragic events of 9/11. 7 years....are we gullible enough to believe that there are no more jihadists living in the US right now, waiting for the right set of circumstances to fall into place? I hope not.



Would you want to help someone who cost you billions of dollars in investments? I doubt it. I would want to see that person crash and burn and then laugh at them. I might even help their opposition just to hurt them worse. If the Iraqi debts weren't cancelled out by Bush and they had a chance of recouping said monies, they probably would have helped because it would have been a good business decision for them to do so. They get their loans paid back and have an opportunity to engage in new business relationships there. They would have an active interest in the security of the new government because that means that they would get PAID. Except Bush alienated them from the process (like he has alienated and divided the US citizens in this nation) and basically, nothing will ever be accomplished in the spirit of unity as long as he holds office.



Things in this world aren't as simple as black and white, or good and evil. That's talk parents give to their children. We are adults who (should at least attempt to) think for themselves. This nation has a serious lack of critical thinking skills. Life is too easy and commercialized. Too much TV dulls our minds and makes us nothing more than a consumer target. In bodybuilding, we do our own research when it comes to health, fitness, diet, ancillaries, etc., I have a lot of respect for people on this board because it is one of the few places that I like to go and share thoughts, philosophies, theories, laughs and sometimes tears with people whom I have grown to care about over time. If we can research something like our diets or training routines why can't we do the same for something just as important, such as the direction of our lives are taking and how the next election will severly impact ourchildren's futures, as well as our own. Just a bit of time to independently investigate what is happening and think about WHY things are happening like they are. Not just in Iraq or Afghanistan but in our daily lives. Health care issues, taxation vs. debt and national deficit increases due to the spending habits of our current government. How will these things imapct our lives over not just the short term but the long term too?



Other than our troops being purposely held back from finishing off the Taliban and Al Qaeda when we had chances, why didn't we do better in Afghanistan? How about because prior to the Afghanistan invasion, Bush told Turkey to go fuck themselves when they demanded the money owed to them for rent of our military bases there? That's right. As a result of that fuckup, the US had no pincer movement from the east or north to comabat fleeing Taliban and Al Qaeda personnel when we invaded from the south. Nothing quite like keeping up with diplomatic relations, eh? It came back to bite us in the ass. This is the major drawback of a man who acts like a lone cowboy. The problem is that a whole nation pays a heavy price for his arrogance. Something else to consider; the Taliban was approached at least 2 years prior to 9/11 about a major US oil company installing a major pipeline to run through part of Afghanistan and they refused all offers. Since we invaded, guess what? The pipeline has been started and will be wholly owned by a US company there. Bug money drives war.


The arguement for war in Iraq was manufactured and sold to some of the American people- definitely not all of them. Using short sound bites and talking points over and over on a daily basis is the primary tactic of this administration. Nice little tidy soundbites for ignorant people to believe. Innuendo, misinformation, disinformation and outright lying are their primary weapons. Ignorance and blind trust is the ally of the Bush White House. The flip-flop arguement Bush uses is an insult to the intelligence of the American people. Ignorant or uninformed people believe that drivel, and it just disgusts me. People are generally too lazy to do their own research and usually rely on tv or newspapers which are mostly owned by the same large corporations that benefit from tax shelters and offshoring jobs. Media market ownership expansion is their reward, just ask Michael Powell at the FCC.



Yes, we're starting to address the crisis in Sudan- but only after MUCH public outcry and media attention. We still are the richest and most powerful nation in the world and have a leadership role to fill. It is our duty to help those less fortunate than us, if we can. That is the essence of the American spirit. It's what makes us remarkable in this world. The point is, we (the US government) only take notice when our asses are on the line or a campaign contributor to whoever is in office has financial interests in jeapordy somewhere. There are plenty of examples to choose from. It is that kind of place (a weak government, low-income, poor living conditions, etc.,) where fundamental Islamist terrorists set up shop and recruit from. If we help address these places and work to make their lives better they will not as likely become jaded by western civilization and ideals. We do need partners in these efforts in this world if we are to remain intact as a global power. Without some measure of diplomacy, we will eventually become a lone entity surrounded by a growing host of nations who have come to despise us and work to see our state fail. I don't doubt that anyone one of us here on this board loves our country. What I'm asking people to do is to prove it to themselves by giving it the time it deserves to really look at things from an objective perspective.

[rvgfrth4g]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
The 1st 5 min. W. was pretty good. After that, he just went all downhill from there. How that man ever got elected I have no clue. He just has no idea on how to speak in public, which makes him look not credible. He got really rattled and perturbed and what Kerry was saying...It kind of said to me that he has a short fuse. I got so tired of hearing W say how much "hard work" he puts in, yet has no viable plan of action for the future, and pretty much that he's going to continue with a plan that isn't working...at least didn't mention it last night.

Kerry's position was voiced throughout, and you know what he stands for and the agenda he has in store. The defining moment for Kerry was last night when W said "The enemy attacked us" (In reference to Iraq)...totally shot himself in the foot. Kerry of course pointed out, "Iraq didn't attack us! Al Queda attacked us, but we didn't go and wage war in that country"...

I also found it interesting that John Edwards agreed to an interview, however Cheney declined.

I've already made up my mind, but the swing voters are what's going to determine the winner. I was listening to a radio station this morning, and the host is a swing voter. He said at this time he feels Kerry is winning 1-0.

I don't even think Kerry knows what he's postioned on. He flip-flops daily. Of course that night he had to make it seem like everything he talked about is set in stone. But i'm sure it'll change again. Kerry won the battle but not the war. Just remember to look at 20 years of Kerry's voting record in the senate than one night of debate. Thats says it all right there. ;)

And the last person i'd want running the armed forces in this country is Kerry. If someone drops a bomb on us he's a big pussy and would want to take it to the United Nations to make sure its ok for us to goto war.

[Primal Instinct]

BigRed54,

Please tell us what exactly IS John Kerry's voting record or are you simply repeating a GOP talking point? Give us some details, if you don't mind...




Edit-

I'll save you some effort. Since I'm tired of typing and have found almost exactly the same info that I planned on typing in an article which covers most of it- primarily only the defense budget claims of weak voting record put forth by Bush's team- I have included a link Setting Kerry's Voting Record Straight for those who believe the Bush team's misleading claims about Kerry being weak on defense. It is frighteneing to me to see how easily people's minds can be manipulated by misleading or false information and innuendo. They simply don't check the sources for accuracy.


This presidential election is about much more than just what's happening in Iraq. It's a pivotal point in our nation's direction on several key issues and will strongly affect our daily lives for the next twenty years or more.

[dreamgirl]

-Kerry voted against the Laci Peterson law.

-Kerry is for partial-birth abortions (abortions when the fetus CAN survive outside of the womb- after the 7th month of pregnancy).

-Kerry is for the morning after pill to be handed out in High Schools without parental consent or notification.

My vote is for Bush.

[redsquirrel]

Originally posted by BigRed54

And the last person i'd want running the armed forces in this country is Kerry. If someone drops a bomb on us he's a big pussy and would want to take it to the United Nations to make sure its ok for us to goto war.

PUSSY?? If you want to talk pussy, then who's father pulled strings for him so he could get out of serving in Vietnam? Whereas Kerry served 2 TOURS in Nam.

You can declare war w/ out going to the UN. Look at Peral Harbor.

[redsquirrel]

Originally posted by dreamgirl
-Kerry voted against the Laci Peterson law.

-Kerry is for partial-birth abortions (abortions when the fetus CAN survive outside of the womb- after the 7th month of pregnancy).

-Kerry is for the morning after pill to be handed out in High Schools without parental consent or notification.

My vote is for Bush.

At least Kerry is trying to keep the teen oregnancy rate down. BTW- US's has the HIGHEST teen pregnancy.

And one more thing- if Bush is re-elected- he has 3 Supreme Court justices lined up ready to overturn Roe Vs. Wade....Sure, I'll vote for a president who's going to tell ME what to do w/ MY BODY. Bush's conservative and holy views on this subject makes me sick.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
PUSSY?? If you want to talk pussy, then who's father pulled strings for him so he could get out of serving in Vietnam? Whereas Kerry served 2 TOURS in Nam.

You can declare war w/ out going to the UN. Look at Peral Harbor.

i have to agree. anybody that calls kerry a pussy has been brain washed by the media. i have never seen a pussy serve 2 tours in Nam and activlly involved in combat. if were going to be stupid here and call people pussy's then if you compare the 2 in terms of what they have done, then i would say bush is the pussy..

[lxorl]

i thought kerry was extremely boring to listen to. and he was head of the yale debate team? Ofcourse bush sounded like an idiot at times, but i didnt get bored listening to him.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by lxorl
but i didnt get bored listening to him.

how could you not?? he said the same thing over and over again.