The Debate Last Night!

[redsquirrel]

"Hard Work!!" "I meet w/ my advisors every morning, and it's some hard work"....at least he's consistent..LOL!!

[Primal Instinct]

Originally posted by dreamgirl
-Kerry voted against the Laci Peterson law.

-Kerry is for partial-birth abortions (abortions when the fetus CAN survive outside of the womb- after the 7th month of pregnancy).

-Kerry is for the morning after pill to be handed out in High Schools without parental consent or notification.

My vote is for Bush.

Dreamgirl,


Kerry voted against late term abortions except in cases when the woman's life was in jeapordy. Bush pushed through a different bill that did not carry this protection for women, so Kerry voted against it. In other words, Bush wanted no inclusion of a life-threatening clause in it to protect the mother's life. No exceptions. I totally disagree with this.

You see, it's all about attaching riders to bills, dreamgirl. You could have a bill that encompasses something in it that may be a good thing but the rider attached by a special interest group in Congress or the White House may have something unaccepatble attached to it that would make the bill unsavory. Here's a hypothetical one for you:


For it, Against it, or Abstain? What's your vote?

"No Killing Cute Puppies Bill":

From now on it will be illegal to kill any cute puppies. Rider attachment: "You may only kill puppies that are not cute.
All kittens may be exterminated freely from this point on."


See the distinction here? Of course, no one wants people to kill any puppies so it would at first seem to be a good bill, right? However, the rider attachment usually comes after the initial subcommittee vote and before the Senate floor vote by the general assembly. As you can see, the rider attachment is sort of a deal killer at times.

In the above case, the anti-kitty group in Congress added in the rider to get something that they want, even though it could kill the essence of the original bill. So now, if you vote for the bill, you support the lives of puppies (that are cute) but also endorse killing non-cute puppies and all kittens. Get it? The best thing in this case is to vote against the bill and continue to support the lives of puppies AND kittens, as is currently the case. But you still lose in the public eye because in effect, what the Bush team is stating is that Dreamgirl voted against protecting the lives of cute puppies. If you voted the other way you would be accused of favoring the killing of kittens. There really is no winning position BY DESIGN.


This is also known as pork-barrel politics, in some cases. The highway bill currently discussed inCongress is a prime example. For the most part, the highway bill was good but rider attachments added in costly and unnecessary special interest projects earmarked for certain congressional districts. So the bill can't pass as is and then needs to be rewritten. This is often a tactic used in Congress to intentionally delay or even kill a piece of legislation that otherwise might be good for our nation.




As for the vote against the Laci Petersen Act, here is the real story: Bush Ad Claims Kerry Voted Against "Protections for Pregnant Women"



To cut through all of the spin on all sides of politics, I strongly recommend a non-partisan entity which gets it all sorted out for the average voter: www.factcheck.org It cuts through all of the misleading bullshit that we all see, read, and hear in the mainstream media.



...and for the morningafter pill being handed out in schools- It's obvious to me that you believe that life begins exactly at the moment of conception. That's fine but not everyone shares your particular views on that issue nor has it been proven scientifically. I personally don't feel that the "Morning After Pill" should be used as a birth control method but it can be a valuable asset in cases of unwanted accidental pregnancies or rape. There are too many fetuses killed in utero through actions specifically targeting a fetus by an unwilling mother as it stands now (usually a teen) or too many babies born in secret and left to die somewhere like we see on the news from time to time. Furthermore, I don't believe that any man has a right to legislate the rights of the body of a woman. Incidentally, I don't believe in late term abortions except in cases of the mother's life is in danger.


There should be more than one issue which decides any election, especially at this point in our nation's development. All issues should be weighed upon and weighed upon heavily. National security, economic policies, health care policies, corporate tax loopholes, national debt and deficit, job outsourcing, civil rights, abortion views, education and foreign policy.

[Primal Instinct]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
"Hard Work!!" "I meet w/ my advisors every morning, and it's some hard work"....at least he's consistent..LOL!!

Yeah, hard work. He didn't realize that he'd have to get out of bed before noon with this job. Select a short phrase that's easy to remember and drive it into people's heads relentlessly day and night and eventually it will take seed and grow- just like the repeated statements by Bush and Cheney that implied Iraq was tied inextricably to the events of 9/11 :mad: Obviously, that was a blatant lie- they KNEW that Iraq was not tied to 9/11 but wanted to build public support for an invasion of Iraq. Hitler and the Nazis used the exact same tactics prior to WWII. Here is a quote from one of his most trusted Nazi officials:





"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering April 18, 1946 at the Nuremberg jail during the War Crime trials


My how history repeats itself...:(

[Cory]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
Bush's conservative and holy views on this subject makes me sick.

RS, you are so right !! I am so sick of the republican asswipes bringing religion into politics. Don't try to push your fucking beliefs on me and use it as your platform to manipulate morality. Every person has their own set of values and it should be their own business.:mad:

[Primal Instinct]

The original idea put into the Constitution by the founding fathers of seperation of church and state was indeed a wise move. It was not so much put there (as many people think) to protect religion from government but just the opposite- to protect our government from the encroachment of religious morality determining the course of our government. In other words, it was put there to protect the republic from becoming a theocracy. Bush is too chummy with the religious far right (typically just to court their vote, IMHO) and guys like Alan Keyes, who is running for Senate in Illinois against Barack Obama are true threats to this aspect of our Constitution. He clearly states as much on his own website.

[dreamgirl]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
At least Kerry is trying to keep the teen oregnancy rate down. BTW- US's has the HIGHEST teen pregnancy.

And one more thing- if Bush is re-elected- he has 3 Supreme Court justices lined up ready to overturn Roe Vs. Wade....Sure, I'll vote for a president who's going to tell ME what to do w/ MY BODY. Bush's conservative and holy views on this subject makes me sick.

RedSquirrel, you'd disagree once you had kids. If I found out someday that my daughter was pregnant and didn't feel she could come to me or her dad about it and decided to take the morning after pill which was available to her at any time frm her school, I'd be devasted. Especially that I couldn't have helped her out in that time of need. I would be furious that her school would give her a life changing pill without my knowledge. I don't think that a teenage girl can make that kind of life changing decision on her own.

And to say I raised her better, or it won't happen to her is a joke. I can only do my best and hope for the best. I hope I never have to deal that decision ever... it would be so hard. You never know how your kids are going to react to other kids... it can happen to anyone.

[dreamgirl]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
Dreamgirl,

It's obvious to me that you believe that life begins exactly at the moment of conception.

No PI, I am actually pro-choice. I'm against late-term abortions (partial-birth).

Parents should be in full control of their kids. The morning after pill is a drug that should only be prescribed by a Dr., not handed out by your local school dist. What if someone had a bad reaction to taking that pill and ended up in the hospital? If a Dr. isn't prescribing it, who is responsible? THe school systems shouldn't even get involved with this, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[redsquirrel]

DG- I am not for partial birth either..UNLESS the mother's life is in danger, or it is a case of incest or rape.

If my daughter came home and said she was pregnant by a man who raped her, you're goddamn right I'd get the morning after pill.

I think the B/C Pill is the only thing being handed out at school. The morning after pill is available, but only by prescription. There are Planned Parenthood locations where ANY teenage girl can go and get the morning after pill....so if they want it, they can get it outside of school, w/o parental supervision.

[Stonecold54]

the best thing for our country would be opposite parties in the executive and legislative branches. That way nothing will get done like normal and they can't ruin any more of our lives :D

[sana]

Originally posted by dreamgirl
No PI, I am actually pro-choice. I'm against late-term abortions (partial-birth).

Parents should be in full control of their kids. The morning after pill is a drug that should only be prescribed by a Dr., not handed out by your local school dist. What if someone had a bad reaction to taking that pill and ended up in the hospital? If a Dr. isn't prescribing it, who is responsible? THe school systems shouldn't even get involved with this, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Primal Instinct is correct. the morning after pill only prevents a fertilized egg (if it did fertilize) from implanting itself in the uterus. you are thinking of the abortion pill - RU487 (or whatever).

your daughter wouldn't BE able to take the morning after pill if she's already pregnant.

Plan B - or the morning after pill - PREVENTS pregnancies. period.

please get your facts straight before you go spouting off.

[comsquat]

This seems like a great thread Sana..whats with the attitude?

[sana]

Originally posted by comsquat
This seems like a great thread Sana..whats with the attitude?

there's no attitude. i am being straightforward in correcting her instead of sugar coating things for someone who's trying to make a point and making themselves look dumb.

[redsquirrel]

Originally posted by sana
you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Primal Instinct is correct. the morning after pill only prevents a fertilized egg (if it did fertilize) from implanting itself in the uterus. you are thinking of the abortion pill - RU487 (or whatever).


please get your facts straight before you go spouting off.

EXACTLY. The Morning After Pill is simply accelerated and increased dosing combinations of a birth control pill.

[redsquirrel]

Originally posted by sana
there's no attitude. i am being straightforward in correcting her instead of sugar coating things for someone who's trying to make a point and making themselves look dumb.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


...AND she's on a DIET!

[Stonecold54]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


...AND she's on a DIET!

that seems to be an excuse thrown around an awful lot. :agree:


:D